[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your further comments Kulino.

In order to understand what you are telling us, I need a clear explanation of what you mean by "inside the karaton" and "outside the karaton". These terms are open to some very elastic interpretations, so can you nail it down?

Similarly with the idea of "keris belonging to the karaton" what exactly do you mean?

I do not know the exact current position with the things kept in the karaton store rooms --- if there is anything at all left there now --- but during the 1980's I did enter and handle some of the stored tosan aji there and I guess we could say these things were "karaton property" but even this is a bit of a queer idea, because it is all under the care of whoever the current Susuhunan is, thus, is it karaton property, or is it the property of Sinuhun?.

True, a lot of these items were not maintained, but it had nothing at all to do with "irogdat-kodrat" relationships, it had to do with available funds and priorities. The Karaton Susuhunan had no spare money. They did not have the monetary nor human resources necessary to properly maintain stored items that had not seen the light of day in maybe 100 years.

Individual members of the Karaton hierarchy, including Sinuhun himself did most certainly ensure that their personal possessions, including tosan aji in their care, were maintained. I saw Empu Suparman on more than one occasion carrying out warangan work for members of the royal family.

I'm not quite clear on exactly how "irogdat" should be understood, a few minutes ago I spoke with 4 native speakers of Javanese, in Solo, and none were quite sure of what the word meant, taken in context, they could guess, as can I, but clarity is lacking, even kodrat used in this way is a bit strange, even though kodrat is a common word.

What I do know is this:- karaton pusakas, and I'm talking here about all the pusakas, not just tosan aji pusakas--- are most certainly taken care of, and offerings are made to them.

This story about irogdat-kodrat relationship sounds like a good story to me, but it does not at all reflect what I have seen in action, nor what I have been taught. In fact, it has the distinct feel of something that is very Santri-centric.

Even the idea that "humans pay homage to a keris" is totally, totally off track. When an offering is made to a keris it is not made to the material presence of the keris, it is made to the spirit which may have entered the keris. The keris should be thought of in a similar way to the way in which we think of a shrine:- the shrine is just a momentary resting place for an aspect of God, when we make an offering at a shrine it is not the shrine that we make the offering to, it is the aspect of God that is momentarily resting there.

If we make an offering to a pusaka keris, that pusaka keris can be the shrine where our ancestors have entered for the moment. The keris is just a place for them to visit, its not the keris that is holy, but our ancestors, who may already have merged with God.

Yes, I did correspond with Martin Kerner. I did not agree with a lot of his ideas, but he was most certainly a gentleman.

The keris shown in post #9 cannot be classified as Majapahit if I apply the indicators used by Empu Suparman.

It lacks one dominant feature that militates against a Mojo classification, and that is the fact that it has a square blumbangan. A Mojo keris should have a rather narrow boto adeg blumbangan.

There are other problems with it as well, but I'd prefer not to make further comment because I do not have it in my hand. The blumbangan alone is sufficient to disallow Majapahit as a possibility.

As is generally agreed, tangguh is a vexed subject. It came out of Surakarta, and it arose to fulfil a specific need. The further we get from origin, the more the understanding of it becomes distorted. At the present time the system has become so corrupted that I seriously doubt if any true ahli keris from Central Jawa of 30 years ago would understand anything about the application of tangguh classifications at the present time.