Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A. G. Maisey · 4th August 2006, 10:33 PM

Thanks for your input on the ID question, BSM & Jeff.

I first started to make this enquiry in about 1986.

Since the first time I enquired I have posed the same, or a similar question to more people than I can recall.

I most recently posed the question on 6th. March 2006, when I sent emails to a number of people who specialize in analysis of meteoritic material.

A couple did not answer.

A couple clearly did not understand what I wrote and replied with answers that were not relevant to my question.

The other people who replied, and I forget now if I recieved two answers or three, provided answers which indicated that it was not possible to identify meteoritic material in circumstances that I outlined.

Would you two gentlemen concur with those opinions, or not?

Here is the text of the letter that I sent out in March this year:-

Dear ---------,

My name is Alan Maisey.

My field of study is the Javanese keris.

The keris in Java is a cultural icon surrounded by complex layers of belief systems.

One of these beliefs relates to the inclusion of meteoritic material in the blade of the keris.

A keris blade is made by forge processes involving multiple layering and welding of the material used in the construction of the blade. A blade containing meteoritic material would typically have the meteoritic material refined and cleaned by folding and welding, and then this meteoritic material would be combined, by folding and welding, with iron.

We know that material from the Prambanan meteorite was used in the construction of some keris made in Central Jawa and dating from circa 1800.

I myself have worked with a Javanese pandai keris (keris maker) and produced a blade made of meteoritic material from Arizona.

A continuing problem for students of the keris is the identification of keris blades which contain meteoritic material. We know that some blades do contain this material, but we have no way of knowing which blades these are, short of actually knowing the history and maker of the blade, something which is so rare as to be almost non-existent.

It is relatively important for keris blades which do contain meteoritic material to be identifiable.

A keris blade that definitely contains meteoritic material has a higher cultural and monetary value, than does one which does not contain meteoritic material.

It has been suggested to me that use of electron microprobe procedures could provide positive identification of meteoritic material incorporated as a component of forge worked material combined with iron.

My question to you is this:-

Is it possible to positively identify material which has been subjected to forge processes, including welding, as containing meteoritic material?

Your response would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Alan Maisey

There it is, BSM & Jeff.

Take a very small quantity of meteoritic material, fold and weld with iron through at least 8 folds and more than 8 weld heats, weld the resulting billet to a piece of steel, forge this out and shape and finish it.

Then subject the finished product to analysis and give a positive ID of meteoritic content.

Can it be done or not?

4th August 2006, 10:33 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Thanks for your input on the ID question, BSM & Jeff. I first started to make this enquiry in about 1986. Since the first time I enquired I have posed the same, or a similar question to more people than I can recall. I most recently posed the question on 6th. March 2006, when I sent emails to a number of people who specialize in analysis of meteoritic material. A couple did not answer. A couple clearly did not understand what I wrote and replied with answers that were not relevant to my question. The other people who replied, and I forget now if I recieved two answers or three, provided answers which indicated that it was not possible to identify meteoritic material in circumstances that I outlined. Would you two gentlemen concur with those opinions, or not? Here is the text of the letter that I sent out in March this year:- Dear ---------, My name is Alan Maisey. My field of study is the Javanese keris. The keris in Java is a cultural icon surrounded by complex layers of belief systems. One of these beliefs relates to the inclusion of meteoritic material in the blade of the keris. A keris blade is made by forge processes involving multiple layering and welding of the material used in the construction of the blade. A blade containing meteoritic material would typically have the meteoritic material refined and cleaned by folding and welding, and then this meteoritic material would be combined, by folding and welding, with iron. We know that material from the Prambanan meteorite was used in the construction of some keris made in Central Jawa and dating from circa 1800. I myself have worked with a Javanese pandai keris (keris maker) and produced a blade made of meteoritic material from Arizona. A continuing problem for students of the keris is the identification of keris blades which contain meteoritic material. We know that some blades do contain this material, but we have no way of knowing which blades these are, short of actually knowing the history and maker of the blade, something which is so rare as to be almost non-existent. It is relatively important for keris blades which do contain meteoritic material to be identifiable. A keris blade that definitely contains meteoritic material has a higher cultural and monetary value, than does one which does not contain meteoritic material. It has been suggested to me that use of electron microprobe procedures could provide positive identification of meteoritic material incorporated as a component of forge worked material combined with iron. My question to you is this:- Is it possible to positively identify material which has been subjected to forge processes, including welding, as containing meteoritic material? Your response would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Alan Maisey There it is, BSM & Jeff. Take a very small quantity of meteoritic material, fold and weld with iron through at least 8 folds and more than 8 weld heats, weld the resulting billet to a piece of steel, forge this out and shape and finish it. Then subject the finished product to analysis and give a positive ID of meteoritic content. Can it be done or not?