the first one does seem to have a Japanese appearance to the "tsuba" and basic blade shape. The tsuba has what looks to be an oval marking around the blade indicating it might have originally had a seppa (washer) also the oval hole is for a small utility knife (kozuka/ Kogatana).
I apologise if these are very obvious comments. If you were able to remove the handle to we can see the tang then maybe more info will come to light.
My guess is that it is a composite piece using an old japanese blade and tsuba?
Cheers
Jason
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