[celtan]

Hello all, I’m just back from dealing with literally explossive issues. And here, waiting for my arrival, Gonzalo left me another.



Again, I think this is something to be addressed outside of the forum, as I have repeatedly said before. But since Gonzo’s post was published, I believe I have the right to answer same in kind. My heartfelt apologies to those not interested in the subject.



And it goes:



English says the same thing about India...but I seriously doubt anybody should be grateful for being invaded and subjugated by anybody, at the cost of lost of many human lifes, the destruction of cultures and civilizations (spaniards destroyed cultures, english did not, or at least not in the same measure)



Spanish incorporated native cultures into their own, and doing so, exposed them to interactions with the one they brought. In the end, the americans themselves decided which one was better and more useful. The less popular and useful simply faded away, just like arameic. Its called evolution.



and the expoliation of their economy and natural resources, to benefit a colonial metropoli and a bunch of spanish parasites, who were empoverished by their richness because they did not produce anything



Parasites like the Incas and the Aztecs..? No, I don’t think so. Spain became an administrative center, and while this model eventually became outdated, it did all right for several centuries. No small feat.



and used their gold to enrich France, England and Holland purchasing there all the goods they were incapable to manofacture, and so the spanish empire began it´s decadence as soon as it started....



Actually Gonzo, most of the Spanish Gold ended up in India, of all places.



Everything decays, living per force also entails dying. Which does not mean that we should avoid living in order not to die…



frankly, I don´t see the need to glorify spanish imperialism, of dubious greatness and gone MANY years ago, at the expense of the countries of origin of the rest of the forumites.



I have never done that, your words are a rather childish attempt to antagonize me to other posters, by default enlisting them on your “side”, whatever that is….



Specially when many belong to a really powerfull empires which ripped the poor spanish empire into pieces and ate them calmly.



Oh Really..? What I have learned from studying post grad History is that Spain destroyed itself from the inside, right after the Napoleonic wars, albeit the beginning of the end may be found at the Battle of Rocroi vs the French gallant Duc d’Enghien, with the destruction of most of the veteran Tercios and the military teachers cadre. All this out of a mere Royal whim...



Ate? : ) Seems like little ol’ Spain was a tough bone to gnaw. It took three centuries for the combined powers of England, France and Holland to bring Spain down, and this as low as Mexico has ever been able to raise itself. : )



Or expeled the spaniards two centuries ago into the sea in their wars of independence before the impotence and incompetence of the whole spanish armed forces and their government.



Yeah, yeah. Curiously, it was the criollos, the American born descendants of the Spanish who managed that (in a very, very close call that left both Mexico and Venezuela virtually uninhabited )not the local rebels. In fact, most of the native populations fought beside the Spanish against the oppression of the criollo landholders. An even the criollos required massive unofficial assistance from the British, and reinforcement from Spanish Regular army expatriates.



The latter were regular soldiers from Riego’s republican armies, who left the Peninsula evading Ferdinan VII absolutist forces and the 100,000 French Sons Of Saint Louis. In sum, the Spanish Empire was actually brought down by Ferdinand VII’s francophyllia, his return to absolutism, and his abolition of the popular Cortes.



Curiosly, the few great men Spain had in it´s Golden Age, all them deeply depicted the spanish government and the spanish status quo...or establishment, as we say in modern times.



Do you meant “despised” perhaps? Mexican Spanglish is a tad difficult to understand sometimes, although understandably so, in view of its post-Iturbide’s History.



So? The Spanish have always been their own most acerbic critics, like today's USA. And yet, this does not detract the slightest bit from our pride in ancestry and love-of-country.



Heck, the few well educated men in 21st C. Mexico despise far more the Mexican government, than the Spanish ever disliked their own!



What common enemies did the conquered peoples had with Spain? The United States and England? Did they were the enemies of the meshica (aztecs) or the philipine moro?...ridiculous...



Nopey, I meant the Aztecs, who were hated and despised all over 15th C. Mexico, and their like. The Chinese who wanted to conquer Filipinas. The Cambodians who wanted to conquer Thailand, etc…



Well, at the end, we are grateful of the spanish opression...we could easily

shake it off...


Remember the Spanish stayed in Veracruz for as long as they wanted? Heck, they even w returned along with French and British, to recover unpaid debts, defeating everything the Mexicans threw at them When both Brits and Spans realized that the French planned to stay, they both left Mexico because they refused to saddle themselves with the unholy mess you made, of what once was the wealthiest part of America...
.
C’mon, Gonzo. There’s nothing that the Mexicans can shake off, in fact, you guys got nothing to shake! You are the most despised nationality in all of America, so much so, that you can’t even stand yourselves!

You Mexicans are your own worst enemies, creating storms within glasses of water, and then congratulating yourselves for having “weathered” them thanks to your vast nautical abilities...It’s really ludicrous, you know.



but more grateful should be the spaniards to the arab domination for SEVEN centuries,



Presence: yes. Domination: not really. More likely a cohesive military and economic control of certain key areas, mostly Southern Andalucia. The fact is that Spain was very underpopulated ( 6 to 10 million), and the invading Omeya-Iranian armies were very few (There were never more than 60,000-100,000 ethnic arabs in Spain at any one time), which meant that most of the population never even saw a “real” Arab, specially taking into consideration the ruggedness of Spain’s terrain and the remoteness of the villages.





Culturally-wise, the Spanish did convert to Islam in staggering amounts, and this mostly because it was convenient. Meaning, most of Spanish Arabs were actually Spanish.



as they were complete barbarians when the arab invasion, divided in many kingdoms (still are by local separatisms), under the foreign visigotic rule...and arabs gave them some civilization ¿Of what unity we are talking about, when still today many basques and catalonians do not completely accept the spanish government and speak different languajes than the official castillian?



Just like in Mexico, where even today 1. every so often you get Indiadas risings?, where 2. many of the local inhabitants speak their own dialects?, whose 3. Spanish is often quite difficult to recognize as such? 4. Where the inland Indians deridingly call their city-dwelling Indian brothers “ispanioles”? Yep, your native unity touches my heart…



The arabs incorporated many scientific findings from the civilizations they conquered by means of fire and sword, but were not that great Scientist themselves. In fact Gonzo, Islam expressly forbid trying to understand God’s ways. It was downright Heresy, and It could be punished by Death. Not a very scientific mind-set, if you ask me.

Kisses?



I will not touch that comment with a ten-foot pole…



Toots




; )




Manuel Luis





Again: Gonzo, if you’d like to continue this discussion, do it through PMs.