Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2008, 08:56 PM

WOW! Norman, now thats what I'm talkin' about!

Very nice photos that show detail beautifully. Very well thought out observations on the origins and development of these swords, and it really would be difficult to draw a direct line of progression. All we can do is look at the provenanced and dated forms from the various regions. I have been trying to recall where it was that it was noted that the 'schiavona' connection was discounted and it was shown which early writer had begun that theory, I think it was the article in Caldwell by Blair on the baskethilts that referred to the misperception, and if not mistaken, it may have been Guy Laking that suggested the schiavona origin. According to what I have read, it seems that Drummond in "Ancient Scottish Weapons" (1881) illustrates several schiavona in his book, and possibly that may have insinuated a connection.

It seems that the developing basket type hilts for the schiavona, the Germanic forms including that of the Landsknechts, so called Sinclair sabres, and English forms were all contemporary in the mid to latter 16th c.
( thank you Berkely for that Shakespeare reference! Thats one of the exact references I recall!

The baskethilt found in the "Mary Rose" wreck (1545) is a great example of early English basket hilts, another I think was the one found near the Bahamas in the wreck of the "Sea Venture" used in Shakespeares "the Tempest".

Found an interesting note on the schiavona. The term has always been noted to refer to the Slavonian guards of the Doge in Venice, but a note I found suggests that the a ending the word refers to a Slavonian woman. This is meant in the parlance that the sword is often termed 'queen of weapons' and a painting titled 'portrait of a lady' in Venetian Italian is titled 'La Schiavona'.
Nothing to do with the Scottish basket hilts, but I thought it interesting just the same

Thank you for the kind note Henk! I hope to learn a lot here too on these weapons. I have of course a good working knowledge from research years ago, but working here with the pro's will greatly solidify the bits and pieces.

All the best,
Jim

14th February 2008, 08:56 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,733	WOW! Norman, now thats what I'm talkin' about! Very nice photos that show detail beautifully. Very well thought out observations on the origins and development of these swords, and it really would be difficult to draw a direct line of progression. All we can do is look at the provenanced and dated forms from the various regions. I have been trying to recall where it was that it was noted that the 'schiavona' connection was discounted and it was shown which early writer had begun that theory, I think it was the article in Caldwell by Blair on the baskethilts that referred to the misperception, and if not mistaken, it may have been Guy Laking that suggested the schiavona origin. According to what I have read, it seems that Drummond in "Ancient Scottish Weapons" (1881) illustrates several schiavona in his book, and possibly that may have insinuated a connection. It seems that the developing basket type hilts for the schiavona, the Germanic forms including that of the Landsknechts, so called Sinclair sabres, and English forms were all contemporary in the mid to latter 16th c. ( thank you Berkely for that Shakespeare reference! Thats one of the exact references I recall! The baskethilt found in the "Mary Rose" wreck (1545) is a great example of early English basket hilts, another I think was the one found near the Bahamas in the wreck of the "Sea Venture" used in Shakespeares "the Tempest". Found an interesting note on the schiavona. The term has always been noted to refer to the Slavonian guards of the Doge in Venice, but a note I found suggests that the a ending the word refers to a Slavonian woman. This is meant in the parlance that the sword is often termed 'queen of weapons' and a painting titled 'portrait of a lady' in Venetian Italian is titled 'La Schiavona'. Nothing to do with the Scottish basket hilts, but I thought it interesting just the same Thank you for the kind note Henk! I hope to learn a lot here too on these weapons. I have of course a good working knowledge from research years ago, but working here with the pro's will greatly solidify the bits and pieces. All the best, Jim