Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

Jim McDougall · 13th April 2016, 07:52 PM

After spending quite a bit of time rereading this thread, which clearly represents some of the most fascinating discussions we have had here through the years, it is tremendously exciting to have it revived after several years by this innovative suggestion by Andy.

It is a most astute observation and suggestion that the shell guard hilt of these apparently Central and South American swords may well be representing the peacock, or as remarkably well noted by Machinist, the Yucatan turkey. These observations present a unique opportunity to potentially assign this apparent anomaly in the widely known 'shell' type motif on guards to a specific region.
In the study of ethnographic weapons, the presence of distinct representation of something key to a region as with these birds, which is a most compelling suggestion and well worthy of more research !

The example shown by Andy is distinct in having the decorative features related to the 'eyes' in the 'plumage' as well as the head nestled against the 'plumage' and more avian appearance. It seems the other example shown earlier in this discussion has the appendage which stylistically resembles a 'head' in the same position, but not with the other 'plumage' features.
Perhaps this might be a stylized or figurative rendition of what we hope might have been a locally embellished form from Yucatan and environs.

We know that these 'shells' as guards on this type of espada from Central and South American regions typically are of the simpler striated scallop shell style, much as have existed in variation in Spanish swords from earlier times. I personally believe that the Brazilian example with the cypher of Pedro II, r, 1831-1889, is likely to have been 'from' these shell types rather than a Brazilian form inspiring them.
The key thing with the Brazilian attribution is attributing these to the more southern regions of Spain's American colonies. The hanger type espada ancha was of course established to the north and frontier regions of America's Southwest.

I hope we mighty continue looking into the compelling avian character of this unique hilt as posted by Andy, and perhaps more support for the adoption of the shell style into possibly peacock or turkey plumage as well as the embellishment using the bird head.

Thank you again Andy for posting this and the remarkably compelling suggestion!!!

13th April 2016, 07:52 PM	#68
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,762	After spending quite a bit of time rereading this thread, which clearly represents some of the most fascinating discussions we have had here through the years, it is tremendously exciting to have it revived after several years by this innovative suggestion by Andy. It is a most astute observation and suggestion that the shell guard hilt of these apparently Central and South American swords may well be representing the peacock, or as remarkably well noted by Machinist, the Yucatan turkey. These observations present a unique opportunity to potentially assign this apparent anomaly in the widely known 'shell' type motif on guards to a specific region. In the study of ethnographic weapons, the presence of distinct representation of something key to a region as with these birds, which is a most compelling suggestion and well worthy of more research ! The example shown by Andy is distinct in having the decorative features related to the 'eyes' in the 'plumage' as well as the head nestled against the 'plumage' and more avian appearance. It seems the other example shown earlier in this discussion has the appendage which stylistically resembles a 'head' in the same position, but not with the other 'plumage' features. Perhaps this might be a stylized or figurative rendition of what we hope might have been a locally embellished form from Yucatan and environs. We know that these 'shells' as guards on this type of espada from Central and South American regions typically are of the simpler striated scallop shell style, much as have existed in variation in Spanish swords from earlier times. I personally believe that the Brazilian example with the cypher of Pedro II, r, 1831-1889, is likely to have been 'from' these shell types rather than a Brazilian form inspiring them. The key thing with the Brazilian attribution is attributing these to the more southern regions of Spain's American colonies. The hanger type espada ancha was of course established to the north and frontier regions of America's Southwest. I hope we mighty continue looking into the compelling avian character of this unique hilt as posted by Andy, and perhaps more support for the adoption of the shell style into possibly peacock or turkey plumage as well as the embellishment using the bird head. Thank you again Andy for posting this and the remarkably compelling suggestion!!!