Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 3rd May 2014, 04:31 PM

Mark, as shown with that astute assessment, you are far from 'novice'!!!!
I agree on the period, which I think is around mid 17th perhaps into the first half. Excellent observation on the Dutch associations, and the style of the hilt does recall some of the elaborately carved themes on these colonial hilts favored through VOC trade in the East Indies.
However, I am inclined to see this as among the English 'riding swords' of this period, and the sometimes almost fanciful use of heraldic lions in a themed hilt corresponds in degree to many of these kinds of hilts with the 'green man' and of the type. In many cases this motif is in accord with some seen even on the so called 'mortuary' hilts with facemask etc. in the style at least.

The one thing which would set this attribution outside England would be the thumb ring, or former presence of it, as this is very much a Continental feature. Here I would point out the profound connections between England and the Netherlands in these times, in fact Great Britain became essentially a Dutch dominion under William of Orange by the end of the century . The influences shared in weaponry between Dutch and English styles is seen well into the 18th century, especially in smallswords, which actually seem to have evolved from such riding swords amalgamated with the rapier.

The shellguard seems much in accord with these riding swords, and Mark's note on the curvature of same is well placed.

To me the patination looks good, and concurs with swords of this age. The blade is interesting, and I have not found information on these rather unusual lenticular blades, but know they were used of course. The stamp at the forte seems floral, but I cant make it out. In style it seems like it could be one of the town stamps used by VOC kamers (the seven chambers in Netherlands) but have not yet found more .

As well noted by Andi, the 1518 is indeed a magic number rather than date, and the running wolf along with it indicates of course pretty much a standard pairing for Solingen products of these times.
Here I would note that I truly appreciate the preliminary research, well detailed description and good photos provided by Andi in this thread.
Nicely done, and thank you Andi!

In conclusion, I do not think this is in any way a historism piece, but as always I would defer to opinions of Jasper or Michael.

All best regards,
Jim

PS, the suggestion to the work of Gottfried Leygebe seems interesting.
There appears to be a pertinent article by Ada Bruhn,
"Der Schwertfeger Gottfried Leygebe" in Vol I of 'Tojhusmuseets Skrifter'
(1945) but I could not access it .

3rd May 2014, 04:31 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Mark, as shown with that astute assessment, you are far from 'novice'!!!! I agree on the period, which I think is around mid 17th perhaps into the first half. Excellent observation on the Dutch associations, and the style of the hilt does recall some of the elaborately carved themes on these colonial hilts favored through VOC trade in the East Indies. However, I am inclined to see this as among the English 'riding swords' of this period, and the sometimes almost fanciful use of heraldic lions in a themed hilt corresponds in degree to many of these kinds of hilts with the 'green man' and of the type. In many cases this motif is in accord with some seen even on the so called 'mortuary' hilts with facemask etc. in the style at least. The one thing which would set this attribution outside England would be the thumb ring, or former presence of it, as this is very much a Continental feature. Here I would point out the profound connections between England and the Netherlands in these times, in fact Great Britain became essentially a Dutch dominion under William of Orange by the end of the century . The influences shared in weaponry between Dutch and English styles is seen well into the 18th century, especially in smallswords, which actually seem to have evolved from such riding swords amalgamated with the rapier. The shellguard seems much in accord with these riding swords, and Mark's note on the curvature of same is well placed. To me the patination looks good, and concurs with swords of this age. The blade is interesting, and I have not found information on these rather unusual lenticular blades, but know they were used of course. The stamp at the forte seems floral, but I cant make it out. In style it seems like it could be one of the town stamps used by VOC kamers (the seven chambers in Netherlands) but have not yet found more . As well noted by Andi, the 1518 is indeed a magic number rather than date, and the running wolf along with it indicates of course pretty much a standard pairing for Solingen products of these times. Here I would note that I truly appreciate the preliminary research, well detailed description and good photos provided by Andi in this thread. Nicely done, and thank you Andi! In conclusion, I do not think this is in any way a historism piece, but as always I would defer to opinions of Jasper or Michael. All best regards, Jim PS, the suggestion to the work of Gottfried Leygebe seems interesting. There appears to be a pertinent article by Ada Bruhn, "Der Schwertfeger Gottfried Leygebe" in Vol I of 'Tojhusmuseets Skrifter' (1945) but I could not access it . Last edited by Jim McDougall; 3rd May 2014 at 04:54 PM.