[Chris Evans]

Fernando

Probably because i am not introduced to mechanic techniques i am not convinced that the purpose of multiple teeth is that of a continuous prevention of an unwanted blade folding, but the developing of a tradition more directed to a cultural attitude than a technical solution.

Could have started as a cultural/legal requirement and then became an entrenched tradition.

Standing way before the knowledge of universal fencing techniques, i see in (navaja) field fighting terms that is a more remote move to try and grasp the opponent’s knife with a free hand than use it to for self protection; apart from scenes viewed in old movies, we have two drawings shown in Forton’s work where the free hand is used to wrap a custom piece, eventually a jacket, to use as a shield to parry the opponent’s blows. And i can only think that a propper way to hold a ratchet knife is to lay the thumb on the latch, an easy procedure to follow.

The traditional Spanish fight with knives was with some parrying implement in the off hand, usually a jacket or a hat, and the knife in the other, all in the manner of old rapier play. We know this from paintings, the writings of the fencing historian Egerton Castle and the surviving knife fighting in Latin America.

So indeed the globes came from France, as consistent with Forton’s ... but were they French ? although not worthing a valid fact, the Moors invasion also reached Southern France; but more valid is that there are no rattle snakes in France. In a quick research, we find a website where the French expert defines one of these "queue de crotal" tail navajas as being made for the Spanish market, which in turn exported them to Mexico, thus the reason for the handle with a rattle snake tail

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Can't comment much on this as I don't know, and unfortunately my French is limited to counting to six! These peculiar knife handle ends came into fashion in the 19th century, so by this time they would have known what a rattle snake was - Just a guess......

Let it be no doubt that fixed blade knives are definitely more convenient for both daily and fighting use but, why not contemplating other conveniences like, for one, being able to fold them into half dimensions for better transport. Besides and more important, you could easily hurt yourself with an open navaja inside your pocket or behind your sash.

No doubt that in the smaller sizes folding knifes were and are considered much more convenient, but even with today's technology the intersection point with fixed blades is somewhere around 4"-5" blade length, dictated by weight and robustness.Yet the navajas of old had blades of 6"- 9 " And then there's the matter of poor speed of deployment with folders, which is a paramount consideration with a weapon.

.....also Toledo had its share, judging by Forton fig. 232, with a blade engraving ARTILLERIA TOLEDO, a name that would only occurr to that factory, during its “modern” end XIX century period.

Now you have opened a real can of worms and this merits a separate thread!

We have the same problem with the navajas that bear the brand (Spanish: Punzon) of Valero Jun of Saragoza. We don't know whether those knives were made in Spain or France and then sold with the distributor's name stamped onto them. This is remains a well entrenched practice in the cutlery industry, and has been for quite a long time.

If you have Forton's Navajas Antiguas, Las Mejores Piezas De Coleccion, have a look on pg93 at #100, a photo of a very French looking navaja. Forton made this comment: Navaja tipica del artesano Valero Jun de Zaragosa, sin embargo la marca de su hoja dice `Navajas De Toledo'. Punzon falso? Ejemplo de que los navajeros toledanos sabian hacer a la perfeccion lo que se fabricaba en Aragon?

Sometime ago there was a lively debate on Spanish forums re this topic and the majority opinion was that the knives were made in France and distributed in Spain under the retailers name.

This conclusion was reached by considering that:

a) These knives were identical with those made in France;
b) by the mid 19th century the Spanish cutlery industry was in a very poor shape and imports from France were pouring into the country at the rate of over one million per year (see Forton); And
c) the workmanship was way above of the knives made in Spain at that time.

But of course, this is something else that will not be settled to everybody's satisfaction in a hurry!

Besides, quoting Forton’s work, several marks gathered by Santiago Palomares from the XVIII century (and earlier) Toledo sword smiths punzones were also present in precious blades of “cuchillos y navajas”… for what this is worth.

Can you please provide more details? Any mention of the typology of the navajas?

The point would not be that of preventing things from happening … but give the other side a chance for a fair fight … i would guess …

This would have been true of common folks, who often had very noisy and showy stand-offs without ever laying a blade on their opponents, and after making a display of bravura reconciled and went on to do other things. But I don't think that the `bandoleros' and other criminals, especially in the presidios, never mind the infamous barateros, were all that interested in a fair fight; But who knows, it was all a long time ago....

Cheers
Chris