Kai, yes, Gustav has been very helpful, and as I have indicated in my post above, I value his assistance very much.
You are absolutely correct Kai, we cannot use any cut off date for influences other than Buddhist-Hindu on the symbolism found in the keris. I said as much in my "--- they did not switch the lights off---" comment.
The keris may have been born into a Hindu-Buddhist society, but other people copied court style and those other people did other things with the Hindu-Buddhist symbolism. After Islamic domination the most important intentional influence was Islam, but there was always other influence as well, some of that influence was ignorance, some was probably not. As with any belief system, the Javanese Hindu-Buddhist belief system was not free of sects and divisions. I believe that for the core of court society, especially for the k'satriyas, the ron dha was understood as "Aum", but outside that core other forces were in play.
You have raised the matter of continuance into the modern era, my entire focus on this matter, right from and before the beginning of this current discussion has been, and continues to be, Jawa before Islam. Within this narrow focus I narrow the focus further:- the ron dha. All the time greneng, greneng, greneng occurs and re-occurs, but I cannot comment on the greneng, except in the context of the ron dha. I have not researched the symbolic content of the complete greneng with its multiple variations, I'm sure there is one, and eventually we will probably be able to present a supportable interpretation of the entire greneng, but that time is not now.
I do not want to get into hilt discussion. The hilt is additional to the keris, it is not the keris. The hilt can and does change according to circumstance, in older examples its interpretation can often only be known to the maker or the client. Styles are fairly readily identifiable, themes are perhaps identifiable, these can sometimes be linked to areas and eras, but just as with the keris itself, the hilts moved all over the place. Only in the setting of very recent courts can we link the hilt to specific usage and hierarchy. In brief:- the study of the hilt is linked to, but separate from the study of the keris. I do not have the time to engage in detail in this study.
Kai, I do not want to talk about grenengs. I do want to talk about the variant element that can be found in some grenengs, that Gustav has presented to us. Now that we have been able to identify and isolate this element, I want to get out of this thread and start a new one that has the very narrow focus of this element. Not the greneng, but the element of the greneng.
Did this feature survive on Bali? From my perspective I am not yet sure.
Kai, I am not at all certain that this variant element that Gustav has come up with is not something from pre-Islam. Read my response to Gustav. I will not be pinned to comments made in discussion, especially when I am trying to elicit complete disclosure from a source. When I publish an opinion I try to make sure I can support the opinion, when I float an opinion in discussion it is what is in my mind at the time I float it, and sometimes it is used to prompt a response.
In respect of Gustav's examples what I am currently prepared to rely upon is that these examples are a legitimate form that comes from an early period, the form is presented in various renditions, but all except one of those renditions carries characteristics that I consider to be sufficient to read the form as intended to have the same meaning. It is a consistent variation that is sufficiently dominant in its context to deserve thorough attention, and we have Gustav to thank for bringing it to our attention.
|