Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2010, 05:18 PM

Guys, Im really not a scrooge so I hope I can add some comments about the sword without breaking the Christmas spirit

no groans OK?

Im too lazy to try to excavate the Norman book here in the bus, and you already have it Nando, but I did find some interesting help in Wagner regarding the pommel, which seems to intrigue me the most on this fantastic rapier. The fact that it is clearly marked for Gonzalo Simon c. 1617 in Toledo of course pretty much rests the case for the sword, but you were trying to type the pommel.

These type of pommels in thier basic shape were apparantly well known in Italy around the end of the 16th century, and seem to have influenced makers such as the Aiala's of Barcelona and Toledo (I believe Luis was son of Tomas and lived around 1566-1620, but Wagners wording is unclear p.173).
In any case they adopted the words JESUS MARIA , which was commonly used by Milanese armourers.
The reason I note that is that the faceted or grooved effect seems to have been in place with thier sword pommels around the early 17th century, and some German pommels of this time used the effect as well. Germany and Italy were key centers in arms fashion in these times, and were in many cases it seems pace setters in designs, particularly Italy it seems.

The interesting marking at the fuller terminus is of course the 'anchor' which is a device strongly favored in Spain in this application. It's symbolism is of course Christian in representation of the cross, and seems to have developed into a kind of 'sigil' in various instances with varying number of patibulum, and systems of punched lozenges among them. It seems this one corresponds in some ways with some attributed I believe to Perez, but cannot find my notes.

OK, enough of my drollery, I just wanted to add those notes to see if they might apply (your comments plz Marc) ....so pass me an eggnog and back to the frivolity

!! But no duelling you guys......I have no idea what the words you guys are talking about mean in context, but be careful.

All the best guys and Happy Holidays!!!!

J.

***NNR****

10th December 2010, 05:18 PM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Guys, Im really not a scrooge so I hope I can add some comments about the sword without breaking the Christmas spirit no groans OK? Im too lazy to try to excavate the Norman book here in the bus, and you already have it Nando, but I did find some interesting help in Wagner regarding the pommel, which seems to intrigue me the most on this fantastic rapier. The fact that it is clearly marked for Gonzalo Simon c. 1617 in Toledo of course pretty much rests the case for the sword, but you were trying to type the pommel. These type of pommels in thier basic shape were apparantly well known in Italy around the end of the 16th century, and seem to have influenced makers such as the Aiala's of Barcelona and Toledo (I believe Luis was son of Tomas and lived around 1566-1620, but Wagners wording is unclear p.173). In any case they adopted the words JESUS MARIA , which was commonly used by Milanese armourers. The reason I note that is that the faceted or grooved effect seems to have been in place with thier sword pommels around the early 17th century, and some German pommels of this time used the effect as well. Germany and Italy were key centers in arms fashion in these times, and were in many cases it seems pace setters in designs, particularly Italy it seems. The interesting marking at the fuller terminus is of course the 'anchor' which is a device strongly favored in Spain in this application. It's symbolism is of course Christian in representation of the cross, and seems to have developed into a kind of 'sigil' in various instances with varying number of patibulum, and systems of punched lozenges among them. It seems this one corresponds in some ways with some attributed I believe to Perez, but cannot find my notes. OK, enough of my drollery, I just wanted to add those notes to see if they might apply (your comments plz Marc) ....so pass me an eggnog and back to the frivolity !! But no duelling you guys......I have no idea what the words you guys are talking about mean in context, but be careful. All the best guys and Happy Holidays!!!! J. *NNR** Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th December 2010 at 01:16 AM.