Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - Engravings on small sword

fernando · 15th February 2010, 06:58 PM

Hi Jim,
Thank you so much for your input.
I certainly remember Cornelis assumption that the star is a Dutch mark. Amazingly and since then, i have seen a few swords, both in books as also in real, that bear such motif. Despite all such swords are aledgely Portuguese, this doesn't avoid that the blades were imported, namely from the Nederlands ... although eventualy none of them had such data in the support texts or labels.
But my questioning was more directed to all those engraved decorations, most specially the arm with the sword emerging from the cloud. Once more it appears that we are facing decoration patterns that were popularized in more that one country, therefore making it hard to figure out the actual origin of the piece.
My first visual contact with this cloud sword was in the discussion we had here, through post #10, introduced from Michael Blalock;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453
No precise provenance was pointed out, though.
After a couple browsings in the Net, one can read that apparently the earliest version of this mark was the coat of arms of the Duke Stjepan Vukčić Hrvatinić, a Bosnian noble of the 14th century. It was based on his coat of arms that the flag of Bosnia during the Habsburg Monarchy in 19th century was created. However these sources also refer that this mark was popularized through various European countries at such period.
A pity that things in life can not always be precise and unequivocal. I understand that for some people such riddles are chalenges to their character, but for my simple and impatient personality they are a punishment

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Let us see if other members come up with further data on this subject.
Concerning the situation of a smallsword blade mounted in court sword, i was originaly more inclined towards the practical purpose than to the simple heirloom hipothesis. This because i usualy see the heirloom or economic procedure in military officer swords, where sometimes they even have to lightly cut the old blade to follow the regulation, whereas in a civilian ambiance i observe that fashionable dundees, while wishing to follow the fashion standards, do not forget that they can be aproached by vilains while walking at night in dangerous streets and want to assure they have a good strong blade at hand.
You will forgive me Jim, if my theory is nonsense; i am just adventuring such conclusion after having read a mere couple lines about the subject ... whereas you have read a zillion lines about a zillion subjects

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Fernando

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15th February 2010, 06:58 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Hi Jim, Thank you so much for your input. I certainly remember Cornelis assumption that the star is a Dutch mark. Amazingly and since then, i have seen a few swords, both in books as also in real, that bear such motif. Despite all such swords are aledgely Portuguese, this doesn't avoid that the blades were imported, namely from the Nederlands ... although eventualy none of them had such data in the support texts or labels. But my questioning was more directed to all those engraved decorations, most specially the arm with the sword emerging from the cloud. Once more it appears that we are facing decoration patterns that were popularized in more that one country, therefore making it hard to figure out the actual origin of the piece. My first visual contact with this cloud sword was in the discussion we had here, through post #10, introduced from Michael Blalock; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453 No precise provenance was pointed out, though. After a couple browsings in the Net, one can read that apparently the earliest version of this mark was the coat of arms of the Duke Stjepan Vukčić Hrvatinić, a Bosnian noble of the 14th century. It was based on his coat of arms that the flag of Bosnia during the Habsburg Monarchy in 19th century was created. However these sources also refer that this mark was popularized through various European countries at such period. A pity that things in life can not always be precise and unequivocal. I understand that for some people such riddles are chalenges to their character, but for my simple and impatient personality they are a punishment . Let us see if other members come up with further data on this subject. Concerning the situation of a smallsword blade mounted in court sword, i was originaly more inclined towards the practical purpose than to the simple heirloom hipothesis. This because i usualy see the heirloom or economic procedure in military officer swords, where sometimes they even have to lightly cut the old blade to follow the regulation, whereas in a civilian ambiance i observe that fashionable dundees, while wishing to follow the fashion standards, do not forget that they can be aproached by vilains while walking at night in dangerous streets and want to assure they have a good strong blade at hand. You will forgive me Jim, if my theory is nonsense; i am just adventuring such conclusion after having read a mere couple lines about the subject ... whereas you have read a zillion lines about a zillion subjects . Fernando . Attached Images