[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Thanks for clarifying your position Ibrahiim.

Just a couple questions for you, just to stimulation the discussion, I am neither on one side of the fence or the other on your question of trade blades, I just find the discussion interesting, so please don't take this as an attack on your research. I realized we've discussed some of these issues before but as you posted a new summary I think it is important to come back to them.

• If not for outside European influences who do local versions of the running wolf occur, like this example which should be, by your definition I think a "real and local" Omani sayf: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1971

• How would you account for the use of triple fullers and half moon stamps like on this example: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2700 Features in other African sword forms derived directly from European trade blades.

• Why would the older short sayf form be replaced at all if not for a dramatic outside influence? If the tradition and symbolism of the original sword was so important? Why else would it suddenly change?

• Can you maybe explain for us why flexibility would be important in a sayf not just for the dance but also combat? A lot of your definition hangs on this point and I am unsure of how far back it is possible to accurately trace this preference for flexible blades? Is it not possible the preference for flexibility and the buzzing sound is a more modern (by modern I mean as the sword declined in importance for combat as firearms took over) requirement due to the dance aspect? I would be surprised if in earlier periods the need for the sword to buzz when swung would be considered over steel quality.

Perhaps a good way to sum up what I am trying to say is, could it perhaps be said that the long sayf, flexible form, are not European trade blades, but a local imitation of trade blades, adapted to be flexible and fulfill the requirements of the Razha and Ayaalah?

I am not an expert in the hilts of the region but I find it very odd to assume that based on blade flexibility alone everything with an actual trade blade could be conclusively written off as not Omani while the genuine Omani swords retain many of the exact same features (fullers and stamps) as the trade blades. At some point for flexible blades, influenced by trade blades, to be made, someone had to think the original trade blades had a lot of good features...

Just some points to think about.

All the best,

Iain

Salaams Iain and thank you for some excellent observations ! Last point first; This is a vital point " To perform the Funoon the blade has to be flexible" ie if it is a stiff inflexible blade it is not Omani. On balance probably Yemeni possibly Saudia or even Algerian and likely to be Mamluke influenced. In the Sayf it does have fullers which make the sword lighter and more flexible... and stamps though none which are other than Omani origin... except fakes.. done to raise the price or for prestige. I dont see any trade blade examples which the Omanis may have copied as they are so different...being tang pommel and blade in a specific Omani format...

If they are not European Trade Blades they must be either local or from somewhere close...I look at India, Sri Lanka, Persia and Yemen without success ... yet.. though if I was to hazzard a guess I would say maybe Yemen fits the cloak or more logically Oman itself ie Nizwa !

Flexibility.. As I say this is parmount in importance. Certainly this is a good point since for example comparing plain steel with wootz which is not used save for a few omani Sayf that RSWORD knows of that I put down to dignatories and or merchants having commissioned from wootz centres say Hyderabad or elsewhere.(and RSWORD will tell you there may well be more of these hidden under unpolished blades.) The Omanis dont seem to have bothered with wootz on either Swords or Khanjars. The flexible razor sharp whip bladed springy steel Sayf seemed to be the form.
The point about its decline as a fighting weapon and its preference as more of a Pageantry and symbolic display is key however I have no idea on precise timescale but suggest late 1700 early 1800 as the beginning of the new system which could have been gradual say over 50 to 100 years. Certainly both old and new Sayfs were Iconic and seen on pictures earlier in this thread on various Sultans waists into the 20th C..

Why would the older short sayf form be replaced ~ That baffles me as well. The only ideas I have on that is tied into the pageantry aspect and because there werent enough old swords left... and they were difficult to produce. I see the old sword overlapping into the new sword timescale by perhaps 150 years or more... I imagine a gradual swing to the new "dancing blade".

Fullers and moon stamps. Fullering was a common enough technical advance in sword making so I see no reason why the Omanis didn't cotton on to the idea via trade etc. Moons are Islamic though I dont see them on Omani Sayf much as I recall.. but often on Red Sea variants.

Meanwhile I look up your references:
The first http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1971 is an Omani Sayf ! not a Kattara and it carries a fake stamp running woolf. It is Omani with fullers.

Your second reference is another Omani Sayf (not a Kattara... Kattaras are curved) It has 3 fullers and a peculiar two moon strike that I have never seen before but which are probably fake.

Both the weapons are Omani Sayf ... Flexible long bladed, long hilts and neither carrying any proof of origin to European Trade Blades since the marks are likely fakes.

Shukran.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.