Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Matchlock · 16th March 2014, 11:14 AM

Hi Marcus,

That's a very good job you did here!

As this is very tricky matter literally requiring decades of experience, I'd like to add a few annotations here.

When it comes to dating, though, one should discern whether the barrel or the lock mechanism is dated; otherwise a later lock could have been stocked re-using an earlier dated barrel.

It is exactly this feeling that I get when looking at the latest instances posted here; while the lock of the gun dated 1709 is exactly ca. 1720-25 (for France), the one at the bottom, in a gun dated 'ca. 1720'), can, in my opinion, not be older than ca. 1730-40.

We should also bear in mind that in the 17th and 18th century - the Baroque and Rococo periods - , France, and especially Paris, had the role of a vanguard in art style which all other countries adopted - with a certain delay, of course! During the 16th c., Italy was first to set up the Renaissance style.

For example, if a French civilian flintlock mechanism is signed by a Paris maker and dated 1719, it will look exactly like a top style Bavarian civilian mechanism dated 1730, with its flat cock and banana shaped concave lower edge of the lock plate! On the other hand, there are many samples of Bavarian military flintlock muskets of the 1730's to ca. 1750 the locks of which look exactly as if they were made in Paris in ca. 1690 - with their big, rounded cocks, broad oval steels and banana shaped, concave lower edges of the lock plate!!!

The flintlock mechanism of the heavy wall gun, ca. 1645, from the Schloss Dyck collection, then once in my possession and posted here, is so close in date to contemporary French locks because it was made near the French-German border!
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...l+schloss+dyck

The same is true for the 1690's lock mechanism of the Bongarde style gun posted above: Bongarde worked in Düsseldorf, next to the Belgian-French influence!

Apart from the regional influences on dating a gun, there is another variant to be considered: the age of the gun maker. E.g., when a gun is signed and dated, and we can trace back the life data of the maker, it will most probably be an old-style gun if the maker himself was an elderly man himself by the time he signed the piece!

Best,
Michael

16th March 2014, 11:14 AM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Marcus, That's a very good job you did here! As this is very tricky matter literally requiring decades of experience, I'd like to add a few annotations here. When it comes to dating, though, one should discern whether the barrel or the lock mechanism is dated; otherwise a later lock could have been stocked re-using an earlier dated barrel. It is exactly this feeling that I get when looking at the latest instances posted here; while the lock of the gun dated 1709 is exactly ca. 1720-25 (for France), the one at the bottom, in a gun dated 'ca. 1720'), can, in my opinion, not be older than ca. 1730-40. We should also bear in mind that in the 17th and 18th century - the Baroque and Rococo periods - , France, and especially Paris, had the role of a vanguard in art style which all other countries adopted - with a certain delay, of course! During the 16th c., Italy was first to set up the Renaissance style. For example, if a French civilian flintlock mechanism is signed by a Paris maker and dated 1719, it will look exactly like a top style Bavarian civilian mechanism dated 1730, with its flat cock and banana shaped concave lower edge of the lock plate! On the other hand, there are many samples of Bavarian military flintlock muskets of the 1730's to ca. 1750 the locks of which look exactly as if they were made in Paris in ca. 1690 - with their big, rounded cocks, broad oval steels and banana shaped, concave lower edges of the lock plate!!! The flintlock mechanism of the heavy wall gun, ca. 1645, from the Schloss Dyck collection, then once in my possession and posted here, is so close in date to contemporary French locks because it was made near the French-German border! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...l+schloss+dyck The same is true for the 1690's lock mechanism of the Bongarde style gun posted above: Bongarde worked in Düsseldorf, next to the Belgian-French influence! Apart from the regional influences on dating a gun, there is another variant to be considered: the age of the gun maker. E.g., when a gun is signed and dated, and we can trace back the life data of the maker, it will most probably be an old-style gun if the maker himself was an elderly man himself by the time he signed the piece! Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 16th March 2014 at 11:37 AM.