Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - Mid to Late 16th Century Patrons for Paper Cartridges

Matchlock · 2nd July 2014, 09:46 PM

Hi Nando and Piotr,

These images undoubtedly depict a load or patron/paper cartridge belt (German: Ladungs- oder Papierpatronen-Gurt) comprising a patron/cartridge bag, with a wooden core drilled for ten paper cartridges covered with ooze or chamois leather (German: lohgares oder Sämischleder), and curved to fit the waist.
This is an extremely rare instance of ammunition related accouterment for Austrian and German musketeers and calivermen, ca. mid to late 17th century/post-Thirty Years War (1618-48), which has not been noted by historic weaponry before today.
Actually, the author signing this post is the first researcher to ever define, and herewith publish, this piece of accouterments.

The images in the previous posts, obviously copyrighted by Piotr

- thanks a lot Piotr: you sure did a GREAT JOB! - , and posted by Nando

- thanks as well Nando, my friend! - , were taken in the exhibition rooms of the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum (Army museum) Wien/Vienna, Austria.

Attached to this post and the following, find photos of the very same items, taken by the author in the show rooms of the same Vienna museum, and by special appointment, on 12 July 1990.
Besides a leather hat for a musketeer, the attachments also include some singular and original ... century Austrian test fabric samples of raw linnen which the soldiers standardized garments were made of - all of them perfectly documented by enlarged copies of excerpts from the original archived documents on these fabric samples.

The next in line attachments introduce
another very rare sample of a late 17th c. German or Austrian load or cartridge waist belt, the wooden core drilled for 20! paper cartridges, and the outside of the bag's leather blind-tooled with a lozenge pattern (German: blindgeprägtes Leder); German private collection:
- 2 attachments

and some fine ca. 1680-1700 Dutch/North Western Germany type of patron/cartridge bags; author's photographs of 6 June 1987 taken in the exhibition rooms at the Emden Rüstkammer (The Emden historic armory) in Ostfriesland:
- 2 attachments

Those patron/cartridge bags were most probably used along with one of the latest types of matchlock or wheellock muskets, including combined versions of these igniting systems.
For the latter type of 17th century 'high tech' infantry long guns/muskets please cf.
a fine ca. 1665-70 Suhl made Austrian combined wheellock and matchlock musket in The Michael Trömner Collection, coming straight from the former reserve collection/depot of the Fortress Hohensalzburg, mainly via the dealer Werner Mewes, Ulm/Germany; also involved were Georg Britsch sen. and Franz Christof, and together with many other amost identical muskets all representing the very same model manfuctured in Suhl/Thuringia and delivered to German, Austrina and Swiss arsenals:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...k+Suhl+Austria

As I stated in post #49 above, literally thousands of weapons of all sorts were illegaly 'deaccessioned' from the reserve collection/depot located on the Fortress Hohensalzburg/Austria in 1987-9.

Those patron/cartridge bags in discussion may have been used together with early type combined flintlock and matchlock infantry muskets of ca. 1670-80 as well, though.

Attached are author's photos of caracteristic samples preserved in the Graz Landeszeughaus (Styrian arsenal); these photographs were taken on 9 July 1987 and 3 September 1990.
- 1 image attached at the bottom of this post, illustrating the Graz museum arrangement of wheellock pistols, scabbards and patrons/cartridge boxes.

For all other attachments please see my following posts.

Alas, this group of 1680's Suhl manufactured muskets is incorrectly termed, and defined as belonging to the almost mythic MONTECUCCOLI system -by the present Graz museum staff.
I have sufficient proof to state that the Graz curators succeeding in office to Dr. Peter Krenn, all have neglected the obvious fact that all the combined flintlock and matchlock Suhl muskets in both the arsenal collections of the Graz Landeszeughaus and the Vienna Heeresgeschichtliches Museum are actually far from deserving to be termed as 'MONTECUCCOLI' muskets ...

As the author has stated various times, The Michael Trömner Collection is the only collection known to hold a true sample of the legendary M 1666 MONTECUCCOLI type, coming straight from the arsenal of The Counts von Stauffenberg, and preserved in optimum original condition overall.
I won it phone bidding at SOTHEBY's London sale of 10 July 2002, lot 242 - cf. my thread:

1666: The MONTECUCCOLI musket - a MYTH Verified! And Common Type Combined Flintlock and Matchlock Suhl Made Muskets, 1680's:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...119#post172119

The only other type of military type contemporary with these patron/cartridge bags are earliest Germanic/Suhl manufactured types of flintlock infantry muskets of ca. 1700-20.
- Attached are images I took of such guns preserved in the Graz Landeszeughaus (Styrian arsenal).

Best,
Michael/Michl
Michael Trömner

2nd July 2014, 09:46 PM	#52
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Nando and Piotr, These images undoubtedly depict a load or patron/paper cartridge belt (German: Ladungs- oder Papierpatronen-Gurt) comprising a patron/cartridge bag, with a wooden core drilled for ten paper cartridges covered with ooze or chamois leather (German: lohgares oder Sämischleder), and curved to fit the waist. This is an extremely rare instance of ammunition related accouterment for Austrian and German musketeers and calivermen, ca. mid to late 17th century/post-Thirty Years War (1618-48), which has not been noted by historic weaponry before today. Actually, the author signing this post is the first researcher to ever define, and herewith publish, this piece of accouterments. The images in the previous posts, obviously copyrighted by Piotr - thanks a lot Piotr: you sure did a GREAT JOB! - , and posted by Nando - thanks as well Nando, my friend! - , were taken in the exhibition rooms of the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum (Army museum) Wien/Vienna, Austria. Attached to this post and the following, find photos of the very same items, taken by the author in the show rooms of the same Vienna museum, and by special appointment, on 12 July 1990. Besides a leather hat for a musketeer, the attachments also include some singular and original ... century Austrian test fabric samples of raw linnen which the soldiers standardized garments were made of - all of them perfectly documented by enlarged copies of excerpts from the original archived documents on these fabric samples. The next in line attachments introduce another very rare sample of a late 17th c. German or Austrian load or cartridge waist belt, the wooden core drilled for 20! paper cartridges, and the outside of the bag's leather blind-tooled with a lozenge pattern (German: blindgeprägtes Leder); German private collection: - 2 attachments and some fine ca. 1680-1700 Dutch/North Western Germany type of patron/cartridge bags; author's photographs of 6 June 1987 taken in the exhibition rooms at the Emden *Rüstkammer* (The Emden historic armory) in Ostfriesland: - 2 attachments Those patron/cartridge bags were most probably used along with one of the latest types of matchlock or wheellock muskets, including combined versions of these igniting systems. For the latter type of 17th century 'high tech' infantry long guns/muskets please cf. a fine ca. 1665-70 Suhl made Austrian combined wheellock and matchlock musket in The Michael Trömner Collection, coming straight from the former reserve collection/depot of the Fortress Hohensalzburg, mainly via the dealer Werner Mewes, Ulm/Germany; also involved were Georg Britsch sen. and Franz Christof, and together with many other amost identical muskets all representing the very same model manfuctured in Suhl/Thuringia and delivered to German, Austrina and Swiss arsenals: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...k+Suhl+Austria As I stated in post #49 above, literally thousands of weapons of all sorts were illegaly 'deaccessioned' from the reserve collection/depot located on the Fortress Hohensalzburg/Austria in 1987-9. Those patron/cartridge bags in discussion may have been used together with early type combined flintlock and matchlock infantry muskets of ca. 1670-80 as well, though. Attached are author's photos of caracteristic samples preserved in the Graz Landeszeughaus (Styrian arsenal); these photographs were taken on 9 July 1987 and 3 September 1990. - 1 image attached at the bottom of this post, illustrating the Graz museum arrangement of wheellock pistols, scabbards and patrons/cartridge boxes. For all other attachments please see my following posts. Alas, this group of 1680's Suhl manufactured muskets is incorrectly termed, and defined as belonging to the almost mythic MONTECUCCOLI system -by the present Graz museum staff. I have sufficient proof to state that the Graz curators succeeding in office to Dr. Peter Krenn, all have neglected the obvious fact that all the combined flintlock and matchlock Suhl muskets in both the arsenal collections of the Graz Landeszeughaus and the Vienna Heeresgeschichtliches Museum are actually far from deserving to be termed as 'MONTECUCCOLI' muskets ... As the author has stated various times, The Michael Trömner Collection is the only collection known to hold a true sample of the legendary M 1666 MONTECUCCOLI type, coming straight from the arsenal of The Counts von Stauffenberg, and preserved in optimum original condition overall. I won it phone bidding at SOTHEBY's London sale of 10 July 2002, lot 242 - cf. my thread: 1666: The MONTECUCCOLI musket - a MYTH Verified! And Common Type Combined Flintlock and Matchlock Suhl Made Muskets, 1680's: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...119#post172119 The only other type of military type contemporary with these patron/cartridge bags are earliest Germanic/Suhl manufactured types of flintlock infantry muskets of ca. 1700-20. - Attached are images I took of such guns preserved in the Graz Landeszeughaus (Styrian arsenal). Best, Michael/Michl Michael Trömner Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 3rd July 2014 at 03:32 PM.