[David]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Ok, moving now directly to the kris-keris world -- my definition of what a Phil. kris is: 'often has wavy blades, whether symmetrical or assymetrical, and/or is assymetrical and has at least one triangular 'blade catch' on the guard, and it does not matter at all whether the guard is separate from the blade or not'. Thus to me all of the blades below would be krises.

Then very clearly, for you, all of the "kris" in your keris/kris/primate illustration are kris. For me they clearly are not. For many others they also are not.

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Now in my understanding of your definition, only the Javanese, Malay, and Sulawesi krises in the illustration below are real krises.

This is not my definition. It is the commonly accepted one. And no, i would consider the Moro kris in your illustration a real kris. It has all the features required.

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

After the 1930s (if Cato is right), most of the Moro krises did not have separate guards anymore. Now let me ask you please, are those latter Moro krises not real krises anymore?

I never maintained that the gonjo must be a separate one. The gonjo is there whether it is a separte piece or not. There are also gonjo iras keris in the Indonesian world. Most often the gonjo iras is delineated by an incised line (both in the Indonesian and Moro world, but not always). But the feature is there whether separate from the main body of the blade or not.

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Also, I can practically guarantee that in the entire Philippines, once they see a wavy-bladed weapon, it will be regarded locally as a kris in the fullest sense of the word.
And once anybody sees that Bohol kalis, they will also regard that as a kris.
In summary, I now think that we all have to accept the fact that Philippines has a more liberal definition on what a kris or keris is (and that would be the whole caboodle below).

Can you really guarantee this? Frankly i doubt that. I am willing to bet that in different areas of the Philippines the locals have very different traditional names for these blades that don't have all the required features. In fact, the Visayan and Luzon blades that you show here don't even have the limited features that you yourself have set up as requirements to be a "real" kris. Simply having a wavy blade does not make that blade a kris. You may be right that most Filipinos have a more liberal definition of what a kris is, but it is completely unimportant what they might believe a keris is as this is an Indonesian weapon with rather strict parameters for it's definition. It is also very clear to me at least that it is these exact parameter of design which define the Moro kris and that these parameters have directly evolves from the Javanese keris, not the other way around.

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

I would even venture to say that if we ask an Indonesian or a Malaysian and show them the Luzon and Visayan krises below, they would most likely say that it's those are krises all right, but they are the Philippine varieties.

Only if you ask Indonesians that don't know the first thing about keris. Show them a Moro kris and they will likely answer differently.

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Thus, in your definition of a kris or keris, wouldn't that be like defining the classical Indo-Malaysian keris more than anything else?

Again, the definition that i am using for a keris is not my definition. It is commonly accepted with just about every knowledgable person that i know who defines a keris. I have extended that definition to Moro kris only. Again, i do not consider these Visayan and Luzon blades kris. They have no other feature to link them to keris other than the wavy blade. And a wavy blade is not even a requirement for a keris and in fact only about one third of all Indonesian keris have wavy blades. I believe that percentage may be higher in Moro kris, but i have never seen an accounting of this. It seems though that it is the reverse with Moro kris, two thirds wavy, one third straight.