[A. G. Maisey]

Well Pak Boedhi, I think you have given a completely correct answer.

You have said that you are not sure.

Probably the answer I should have given if I had not been in a relaxed mood when I wrote my opinion.

I should have realised that sometimes that which is blindingly obvious to one person, may not be so to another.

I am not talking here about my opinion on Michael's blade.

I am talking about the fact that my opinion is based upon what I can see.

I'm going to restate that opinion. Make no mistake about it, my opinion is still exactly the same:- I look at Michael's keris and I see Madura.

However what I failed to do in my initial post was to state the blindingly obvious:- my opinion is based upon what I can see in the image on my computer screen.

So:- in my opinion Michael's keris displays features that indicate a Madura origin; please note that this opinion is based upon what I can see in the image on my computer screen, and this opinion could change were I to actually hold the blade in my hand.

I was wrong in stating my opinion as I did. I assumed that it was obvious that such an opinion was subject to the qualification I have now added, and thus it did not need to be added. I will not make the same mistake again.

Ta sengguh I have never heard. If I did hear it, it would confuse me.
Would I be hearing "ta sengguh", or would I be hearing "tak sengguh" ?
Would sengguh be being used to affirm correctness or to express disagreement?
The word sengguh has a number of meanings, ranging from "I guess" or "I think" to a noun meaning "a wrong idea". Actually, I think that correctly the "I guess" form probably should be "nyengguh".
Anyway, I am not a native speaker of Javanese, and if I did hear this relative to tangguh, I would question exactly what was meant.

Now, what I have heard, many, many, many times, is "tak sungguh"---"not true". Mostly this has been delivered in a more or less joking fashion indicating that what tangguh something may or may not be decided to be, its not true anyway.Its all imagination.

Personally, I don`t go along with this. The system of tangguh is something that developed during the 19th century, and its roots are buried deep in the socio-economic system of colonial Jawa. It once had a very solid purpose, but as time has passed, and that purpose has assumed a much lesser importance than it once had, the system itself has been corrupted, so it no longer functions as it was intended to.Still , it is all we have , so we live with it.

The word "tangguh" exists in Old Javanese, where it carries the meanings of advice, reminder, and guideline. Not all that far from its meanings in Modern Javanese.

Pak Boedhi, what you say about the difficulties with tangguh, I doubt that anybody would disagree with. However, what I have found is that the indicators that are used in determining a tangguh vary from place to place, given an equal (locally) accepted level of expertise of the penangguh. I believe that this was initially a Surakarta system---which makes sense, bearing in mind its original purpose--- but the indicators that are generally accepted in Surakarta can differ from those accepted in Jogjakarta, and once you move outside Central Jawa---well, everything can vary.Go to East Jawa and see what the understanding is.You mention the method of teaching tangguh. Again in my experience, and your own may be different, what I have found is that many, if not most people when questioned why they assign a particular tangguh to a blade will effectively say:- "well, its Mataram SA because it looks like Mataram SA" . Press them, and after they name and explain two or three indicators they revert to "it looks like Mataram SA". Then there is the lack of consistency.There are at least two different types of keris that are accepted by one group of people or another as Pajang. Try to get some consistency with Pengging!!!!! Again, at least two widely varying forms that different people will swear are Pengging.Mataram Senopaten and Pajajaran (bata rubuh)---how many times do you see these mixed up?? How many times have you ever heard anybody give a tangguh of Banten? Look at Jensen and see what Banten looked like and then see what people in Central Jawa would give as a tangguh.Banten blades were very common in the 16-17th century.

There`s another thing too:- the tangguh system was developed for a very specific purpose (which at this time I do not wish to elaborate on), and when it is applied to good quality blades in good condition, there will be a high degree of conformity with set down parameters---at least with the parameters I was taught. However, as the quality or condition of a blade deteriorates the degree of conformity will lessen and this is where we encounter a major problem, because there may be only a couple of indicators apparent that suggest a particular tangguh, so an opinion is given, based on those couple of indicators. This is the major reason why opinion on tangguh varies from person to person, and even with the same person when the same blade is presented to him for an opinion some months apart. If the application of tangguh were restricted to only good quality blades in good condition---which is what it was intended for before it became corrupted--- there would not be near the variation in opinion, nor the seemingly ridiculous opinions, that we encounter at the present time.

But, as we have already said:- tangguh is opinion, and that opinion can be accepted as correct in one place, and declared incorrect in another. In essence, it is a belief system, and the details of that belief system vary from place to place.

However, be all that as it may, one thing is certain:- an older blade will never be confused with a younger blade by anybody with even a little understanding of tangguh. Nobody will ever confuse Majapahit with Surakarta, nor Pajajaran with Kartasura.

Pak Boedhi, I am not challenging your opinion that most Javanese dealers would consider Michael's blade to be Sumatran, however, based upon my own experience, dealers in Central Jawa and East Jawa become totally confused by any blade that does not fall into a Javanese classification. Generally speaking, they just have no idea of point of origin once something moves outside Jawa.Yes, certainly, they will identify Bali, and Bugis,and Madura, but that is just about the limit.Moreover, what they call "Bugis" covers a whole range of styles that should probably be classified separately. Jakarta dealers might be different in this. I do not know about them, as I have not been to Jakarta since 1978.But I have spent a lot---a real lot---of time with dealers in Solo, Jogja, and a number of locations in East Jawa, and although some of them are pretty good with Javanese tangguhs, they nearly all become confused by anything that is not clearly Javanese. I have lost count of the times I have heard "diluar Jawa". Bearing in mind the original purpose of tangguh, there is nothing wrong with this, but it does demonstrate that if we seek to extend the boundaries of tangguh we need to look to sources of knowledge in places other than Jawa to do so.

My observations indicate that some of our members in Singapore and Malaysia do have the knowledge to be able to provide parameters that could be applied to Peninsula, and possibly Sumatran blades that would standardise the classification (tangguh) of these blades.
Do any of you Singapore and Malaysian gentlemen feel inclined to involve yourselves in such a project?
I could provide the framework that I was taught, and each indicator in this framework could be subject to debate and decision as to what is the generally accepted standard that applies to each indicator for each classification of blade.