Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - When did the katar move to the northern part of India?

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2016, 05:42 PM

Jens, I am so glad you bring up the 'well travelled' topic of the origins of the katar again, and as you have set the stage for the advance of serious study into Indian arms with the interest stirred in you outstanding book, I am hoping others will join here in this quest.

If I recall, you have established the earliest probable date for the beginning of these distinctive transverse grip daggers sometime in 10th century, and likely in Orissa, and by evaluating the iconography from the caves (I think Ellora). Can you say again more on those? you mentioned that the comprehensive representation of the arms of the period indicated about the time when the katar was notably absent.

The big problem is the also notable absence of any linear chronology of development until the pronounced presence of katars in the 16th century.
The painting of Babur from 1598 showing katar present is of course likely in accord with artists representing weaponry of their own period, as Babur died in 1530, but still, it would seem that as a form it was probably already well established.

The katars of South India, from Tanjore and others, seem to basically have a prominent hand guard or 'hood', while the primary transverse grip structure stands behind these features. So it would seem that this 'hooded' feature is more a regional character than developmental stage. Again these are 16th century but the 'hoods' seem to diminish later.

So did the katar form really move northward, or had it already been there in reduced presence, and became an embellished form in the South later. The diffusion of a form is not confined to a specific direction, even with inter tribal or geopolitical situations. Influences transmit through trade, the movements of people, families and many factors, so we cannot restrict development to known conquests or dynastic movement alone.

I have always wondered if the transverse grip design was actually created outside the Indian subcontinent, perhaps in simplification of cases of a spike or blade in the boss of a shield (transversely held). This is something Jens and I considered and talked on for years as we considered the Spanish 'adarga' and the mysterious 'Manople' (shown in Stone, and Calvert). This was a gauntlet (pata like) dagger of late period, but still begged question of its true origins.

Could any sort of transverse grip dagger exist in Persian or early Central Asian context? That would be the key.

11th December 2016, 05:42 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,747	Jens, I am so glad you bring up the 'well travelled' topic of the origins of the katar again, and as you have set the stage for the advance of serious study into Indian arms with the interest stirred in you outstanding book, I am hoping others will join here in this quest. If I recall, you have established the earliest probable date for the beginning of these distinctive transverse grip daggers sometime in 10th century, and likely in Orissa, and by evaluating the iconography from the caves (I think Ellora). Can you say again more on those? you mentioned that the comprehensive representation of the arms of the period indicated about the time when the katar was notably absent. The big problem is the also notable absence of any linear chronology of development until the pronounced presence of katars in the 16th century. The painting of Babur from 1598 showing katar present is of course likely in accord with artists representing weaponry of their own period, as Babur died in 1530, but still, it would seem that as a form it was probably already well established. The katars of South India, from Tanjore and others, seem to basically have a prominent hand guard or 'hood', while the primary transverse grip structure stands behind these features. So it would seem that this 'hooded' feature is more a regional character than developmental stage. Again these are 16th century but the 'hoods' seem to diminish later. So did the katar form really move northward, or had it already been there in reduced presence, and became an embellished form in the South later. The diffusion of a form is not confined to a specific direction, even with inter tribal or geopolitical situations. Influences transmit through trade, the movements of people, families and many factors, so we cannot restrict development to known conquests or dynastic movement alone. I have always wondered if the transverse grip design was actually created outside the Indian subcontinent, perhaps in simplification of cases of a spike or blade in the boss of a shield (transversely held). This is something Jens and I considered and talked on for years as we considered the Spanish 'adarga' and the mysterious 'Manople' (shown in Stone, and Calvert). This was a gauntlet (pata like) dagger of late period, but still begged question of its true origins. Could any sort of transverse grip dagger exist in Persian or early Central Asian context? That would be the key.