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Jim McDougall · 18th June 2012, 05:55 PM

Gav, thank you for entering this concurrently in the trademarks thread, as I think it is an important addition to be archived with pending outcome. I think you and Fernando have presented key insight into the nature of the stamped inscription which appears to be some kind of motto or invocation.

The example Fernando posted of a tulwar appearing to be a Mughal piece mounted with a blade with this same inscription and configuration is most interesting.
* DIME & EL *
* ATERRO *
I cannot be certain, but it does seem the figure between dime and el is an ampersand, which of course signifies the Latin 'in et' =and. It seems that most of these inscriptions/names or variations on these blades use symbols
like asterisks, stars or seemingly punctuated dots as decorative additions rather than actual grammatical inclusions. This aligns with the common use of various symbols and devices in the completion and beginning of words or names, such as the cross and orb; anchor and sometimes others.

The ampersand (if that is indeed what it is) would seen to defy literal translation of these words gramatically, but if this is a stamp (apparantly there are at least two of these blades, suggesting more as well), placed by an enterprising blade importer, it may of course be transliteration. The word 'di' (I am no linguist so bear with me) if I understand correctly is part of the two word 'tell me' which should be 'di me' spaced rather than joined. The 'el' seems misplaced as 'atterar' as a verb means in variant to knock down; strike or bury etc. The wording and placement do not make sense as has been pointed out, but the context of these words compellingly suggests the nature of a motto or slogan rather than a name.

On the tulwar in addition to this inscription there is the 'twig' mark which though associated with North Italy makers is known to have been is use by German makers in the 16th century into the 17th (Wallace Collection). It is also known that Solingen makers applied spurious inscriptions such as these on blades for trade, and misspellings and transliterations were not uncommon. The use of the 'twig' mark on the tulwar blade in conjunction with this inscription suggests likely German make for the blade. The North Italian configuration of the inscription components and the spurious 'twig' mark would seem to corroborate that.
The cogwheel shape used in the manner of stars or other motif with these words is also a shape often seen on both German and Italian blades and perceived associated with certain makers in degree.

I would think that perhaps these words are likely disambiguated from either a heraldic or group/patriotic motto and transposed in a stamp intended to simulate North Italian inscriptions on many of thier blades. In many ways this reminds me of the 'Spanish motto' on blades of the 18th century (possibly earlier) which were inscribed in a sort of combination of Latin and Spanish which was not entirely correct in either, but easily decipherable.

All the best,
Jim

18th June 2012, 05:55 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Gav, thank you for entering this concurrently in the trademarks thread, as I think it is an important addition to be archived with pending outcome. I think you and Fernando have presented key insight into the nature of the stamped inscription which appears to be some kind of motto or invocation. The example Fernando posted of a tulwar appearing to be a Mughal piece mounted with a blade with this same inscription and configuration is most interesting. * DIME & EL * * ATERRO * I cannot be certain, but it does seem the figure between dime and el is an ampersand, which of course signifies the Latin 'in et' =and. It seems that most of these inscriptions/names or variations on these blades use symbols like asterisks, stars or seemingly punctuated dots as decorative additions rather than actual grammatical inclusions. This aligns with the common use of various symbols and devices in the completion and beginning of words or names, such as the cross and orb; anchor and sometimes others. The ampersand (if that is indeed what it is) would seen to defy literal translation of these words gramatically, but if this is a stamp (apparantly there are at least two of these blades, suggesting more as well), placed by an enterprising blade importer, it may of course be transliteration. The word 'di' (I am no linguist so bear with me) if I understand correctly is part of the two word 'tell me' which should be 'di me' spaced rather than joined. The 'el' seems misplaced as 'atterar' as a verb means in variant to knock down; strike or bury etc. The wording and placement do not make sense as has been pointed out, but the context of these words compellingly suggests the nature of a motto or slogan rather than a name. On the tulwar in addition to this inscription there is the 'twig' mark which though associated with North Italy makers is known to have been is use by German makers in the 16th century into the 17th (Wallace Collection). It is also known that Solingen makers applied spurious inscriptions such as these on blades for trade, and misspellings and transliterations were not uncommon. The use of the 'twig' mark on the tulwar blade in conjunction with this inscription suggests likely German make for the blade. The North Italian configuration of the inscription components and the spurious 'twig' mark would seem to corroborate that. The cogwheel shape used in the manner of stars or other motif with these words is also a shape often seen on both German and Italian blades and perceived associated with certain makers in degree. I would think that perhaps these words are likely disambiguated from either a heraldic or group/patriotic motto and transposed in a stamp intended to simulate North Italian inscriptions on many of thier blades. In many ways this reminds me of the 'Spanish motto' on blades of the 18th century (possibly earlier) which were inscribed in a sort of combination of Latin and Spanish which was not entirely correct in either, but easily decipherable. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th June 2012 at 07:04 PM.