Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - An Interesting 15th C. Nuremberg Mail Shirt Fragment With Mark

Swordfish · 7th April 2012, 08:22 PM

After close examination of two of these marks, I have to revise my opinion.
The arms and the dots are not handmade, but the stamp or the casting mould with which these fakes were made, is crudely handmade.

Otherwise you are completely wrong.

The facts are: 3 identical (not similar,but identical) marks with the same irregularities.
The first sold October 2008 lot 388 on a not excavated mail shirt of poor quality with missing parts.
The second sold October 2009 lot 421 on a not excavated small mail fragment.
The third (depicted in post#1) sold October 2010 lot 573 on a small corroded fragment.

Town marks or inscribed brass rings are never cast or single handmade items. They are always stamped and punched from a sheet.

If the town mark is included in the mesh of the shirt, it must have been added during the manufacturing. This is impossible, because a proof mark or an arsenal mark can only be added to a finished mail shirt. Or the finished mail shirt must have been opened to include the mark and fasten it with some new rings. (unlikely)
Or the mark was added to the finished shirt with additional rings. See the brass ring with name Nurenberck in my thread Research on a fine medieval mail shirt. This practice was usual with rings but not with shields. If a ring with a town name was possibly not a proof mark, but a quality mark to show its provenance, it could well be included in the mesh during the manufacturing. See the rings Bertold vor Parte and to Isrenloen in the thread mentioned above.
All examples of shield marks I know are rivetted to the mail shirt with one or two rivets.

Traces of wear or age can be found on every fake.

There can be no doubt, these marks are fakes from the same workshop!

Best

7th April 2012, 08:22 PM	#8
Swordfish Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 129	After close examination of two of these marks, I have to revise my opinion. The arms and the dots are not handmade, but the stamp or the casting mould with which these fakes were made, is crudely handmade. Otherwise you are completely wrong. The facts are: 3 identical (not similar,but identical) marks with the same irregularities. The first sold October 2008 lot 388 on a not excavated mail shirt of poor quality with missing parts. The second sold October 2009 lot 421 on a not excavated small mail fragment. The third (depicted in post#1) sold October 2010 lot 573 on a small corroded fragment. Town marks or inscribed brass rings are never cast or single handmade items. They are always stamped and punched from a sheet. If the town mark is included in the mesh of the shirt, it must have been added during the manufacturing. This is impossible, because a proof mark or an arsenal mark can only be added to a finished mail shirt. Or the finished mail shirt must have been opened to include the mark and fasten it with some new rings. (unlikely) Or the mark was added to the finished shirt with additional rings. See the brass ring with name Nurenberck in my thread Research on a fine medieval mail shirt. This practice was usual with rings but not with shields. If a ring with a town name was possibly not a proof mark, but a quality mark to show its provenance, it could well be included in the mesh during the manufacturing. See the rings Bertold vor Parte and to Isrenloen in the thread mentioned above. All examples of shield marks I know are rivetted to the mail shirt with one or two rivets. Traces of wear or age can be found on every fake. There can be no doubt, these marks are fakes from the same workshop! Best Last edited by Swordfish; 7th April 2012 at 09:17 PM.