Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 15th October 2021, 07:35 PM

Very good points on influences, and European styles were indeed very much influenced by 'exotic' styling of the Middle East and Asia.
Actually I see what you mean on the particular guard I was referring to and with the central downward langet this is probably more aligned with Ottoman styling.

What I was referring to is that many European weapon styles were deeply influenced by Middle Eastern and Asian, Chinese forms in particular in the 18th century.

Much of this began with the East India companies and trade in the Far East during the 18th c. and both England and Holland had ports in China, India and the many island archipelagos of the 'East Indies'.

The styling and arts of 'chinoiserie' was popular in all forms of material culture including of course weaponry. Actually there were Chinese workers brought into Europe. Referring to the interest in these styles, in "The Smallsword in England" (Aylward, 1945,p.57) it is noted. "...it is most likely these weapons were first made for the Dutch factory in Pekin, and it is known that, afterwards, the Company brought over some Chinese workmen to Europe, who produced in Amsterdam hilts of similar character which were fitted with blades made in Holland and in
Solingen".

This is referring to mostly small sword type hilts decorated in what they called Tonquinese apparently referring to Tonquin China (Viet Nam) in accord with the use of shakudo (a decorative process from Japan) and the chinoserie manner of artistic theme.
It seems like there were swords with jian style hilts made as a kind of novelty in Poland or somewhere in the East Europe of Balkan blocs but as yet unable to find the reference.

I have seen court and small swords with more Chinese 'jian' style hilts typically in brass and of 18th c.

As you note this example has styling which is more like the 'revival' type hilts of Qajar Persia of c. 1794-through 19th c. The 'dragon' quillon terminals also reflect this, as well as downturned quillons and the center langet.

With China, the Qianlong emperor of the 1790s and the Qajar dynasty of 1794 there was more interest in styling bringing cross diffusion from Europe into these empires, as well as their styling into European spheres.
So entirely agree with your observations on these.

Turning to the subject here, that of European favor of these 'exotic' styles in edged weapons. Many of the Pandour hangers had Chinese styled guards as I had mentioned. I will try to find examples from Buttin (1933) and others but some have more Ottoman styling. The thing was that anything 'exotic' from the Middle or Far East was popular for these irregular forces.

The images are first two, Chinese jian swords.
Next the Qajar style hilts of Persian used in 'revival' style recalling the traditional swords of early times.

15th October 2021, 07:35 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,753	Very good points on influences, and European styles were indeed very much influenced by 'exotic' styling of the Middle East and Asia. Actually I see what you mean on the particular guard I was referring to and with the central downward langet this is probably more aligned with Ottoman styling. What I was referring to is that many European weapon styles were deeply influenced by Middle Eastern and Asian, Chinese forms in particular in the 18th century. Much of this began with the East India companies and trade in the Far East during the 18th c. and both England and Holland had ports in China, India and the many island archipelagos of the 'East Indies'. The styling and arts of 'chinoiserie' was popular in all forms of material culture including of course weaponry. Actually there were Chinese workers brought into Europe. Referring to the interest in these styles, in "The Smallsword in England" (Aylward, 1945,p.57) it is noted. "...it is most likely these weapons were first made for the Dutch factory in Pekin, and it is known that, afterwards, the Company brought over some Chinese workmen to Europe, who produced in Amsterdam hilts of similar character which were fitted with blades made in Holland and in Solingen". This is referring to mostly small sword type hilts decorated in what they called Tonquinese apparently referring to Tonquin China (Viet Nam) in accord with the use of shakudo (a decorative process from Japan) and the chinoserie manner of artistic theme. It seems like there were swords with jian style hilts made as a kind of novelty in Poland or somewhere in the East Europe of Balkan blocs but as yet unable to find the reference. I have seen court and small swords with more Chinese 'jian' style hilts typically in brass and of 18th c. As you note this example has styling which is more like the 'revival' type hilts of Qajar Persia of c. 1794-through 19th c. The 'dragon' quillon terminals also reflect this, as well as downturned quillons and the center langet. With China, the Qianlong emperor of the 1790s and the Qajar dynasty of 1794 there was more interest in styling bringing cross diffusion from Europe into these empires, as well as their styling into European spheres. So entirely agree with your observations on these. Turning to the subject here, that of European favor of these 'exotic' styles in edged weapons. Many of the Pandour hangers had Chinese styled guards as I had mentioned. I will try to find examples from Buttin (1933) and others but some have more Ottoman styling. The thing was that anything 'exotic' from the Middle or Far East was popular for these irregular forces. The images are first two, Chinese jian swords. Next the Qajar style hilts of Persian used in 'revival' style recalling the traditional swords of early times. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th October 2021 at 05:48 PM.