[David]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

"The Sundang is fairly well accepted as developing from some form of Indonesian keris."

This point has not been proven at all and is not even discussed in any literature on the keris. I don't think Cato even discussed it in his work on Moro swords.

Well, i never said "proven", i said "accepted". Frankly i don't need the scholarly writings of Europeans nearly a century ago to tell me what i can see and determine for myself through simple observation. Do you believe that the Moro Kris developed in a vacuum, yet for some reason carries the same form and iconography as it's cousin, the Indonesian keris, which developed centuries before it? Or perhaps you have seen examples of Moro kris which can be reasonably dated anywhere near the oldest know examples of Indonesian keris. If you have, i'd like to see them. Or maybe you have some photographs from a stele at an ancient Moro temple that can be dated to the 15th century (as can with the Candi Sukuh in Central Jawa showing Javanese keris) that shows depictions Moro style kris in use at the time, thereby dating their existence to somewhere near the same time when the Indonesian keris as we know to was developing.

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

"Frankly, what Winstedt has to say about terminology ( which is mostly the re-hashing of other European authors in the book section you have posted).."
I am curious who these authors are? Please take note that Winstedt published this article in 1941.

Seriously? You posted the Winstedt article. I assume you've read it He clearly references Woolley, Wilkenson, van Ronkel, Banks, and others.

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

"Language evolves. That a large community of indigenous Malay collectors now refer to their own version of the Moro kris as a "Malay Sundang" legitimizes that terminology for me. It is, after all, their culture."
True, but in what way is this a case of linguistic evolution? I see it as a misappropriation of a term which makes it necessary to correct and which I am attempting to do. Like I also said, I have not encountered the term "Malay Sundang" in any reliable literature.

Language is a living entity. It does not only live for academic purposes. I am regularly in communication with a large group of keris enthusiasts from various parts of Indonesia and Malaysia. This is THEIR culture, not mine. It is not for me to critical their cultural "appropriation". If i want to communicate with them, which is, after all, the actual purpose of language, it is best for me to use terms they best understand. When i say "Malay Sundang" they immediately know exactly what i mean. It is not for me to "correct" them and i would only be risking alienating that community if i tried. Your mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

"Why is it not just as likely that after seeing Moro kris and accepting and re-dressing traded blades in Malay/Indonesian styles that smiths in various Malay regions would not attempt to forge their own on their home turf? Obviously the smiths of Brunei, Sumatra, Borneo and Sulawesi have proven themselves quite skillful blade smiths over the centuries. So why assume that the sundangs that obviously don't look Moro in origin had to be created by Javanese or Sumatran smiths still living in the Philippines who emigrated to, say, Sulu or some other area of Moroland?"

Simply because no evidence of such appears in any serious study. I am basing my statements on published scholarly works and not mere imagination.

No evidence seems to exist for either theory. Where in your scholarly works have you come across anyone saying that Malay Sundang blades that are not Moro were made by Indonesians living and working in Moroland that were then traded to Indonesians? Why is your "imagination" any more legitimate than mine. We are all just speculating here and to claim that you have the answers based upon solid and indisputable evidence provided to you through scholarly research is disingenuous at best.

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

"Frankly, as much as you are demanding "scholarly" references from me, nothing you have presented supports your idea that none of these "so-call" Malay Sundangs have blades that were actually made in Indonesia. I would think that logic would suggest that in fact Indonesian smiths would emulate the slashing sword form of the Moro kris and create their own take on it."

Please check the references and you will see what I mean. None say their origins to be Indonesia but they do mention Sulu and Borneo. None also mention the term "Malay Sundang." I would provide all the details if I were writing a paper for a journal publication here but I am not. I will publish that somewhere else. I have nonetheless indicated the references or at least their authors for the convenience of those who would like to engage in a scholarly understanding of the sundang. I'm sorry but logic is not sufficient to prove the point. We have to recognize the hard work of earlier scholars who devoted time and effort to find out the truth. I have based my views on such works.

Please don't misunderstand. I do not dismiss scholarship. I have read Winstedt, Woolley, Frey, Cato, Groneman, Tammens, van Duuren, Van Zonneveld, Gardner, etc., etc. However, as i am sure you know, great holes exist in these researches that may never be filled and i cannot think of any recognized author who has fully tackled and explained the origins of the Moro Kris or, for that matter, how the Malay Sundang developed. I am not attempting to prove a point here as give the current state of evidence i do not believe there is enough evidence to prove any points. We are left with logic, speculation and conjecture.