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Originally Posted by F. de Luzon
I have shown a scholarly reference that points to the origin of the sword as the Mindanao and Borneo area. Other references whose authors I've mentioned also attribute it to the Moros. The word sundang itself is in the vocabulary of various languages in the Philippines but not in the Malay language. Malay dictionaries will prove this ("Pedang" for sword is the closest term). Soendang has been mentioned as a term for a sword in East Sumatra but without a description we cannot be certain if it is indeed the same as the so called malay sundang. It could be something else.
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You seem to be debating a point that no one is arguing here. The Sundang is fairly well accepted as developing from some form of Indonesian keris (whether Bugis or Balinese, etc. has never been proven), but the form itself, as a slashing sword length weapon has pretty much always been attributed to the Moro people. No one has stated otherwise in this thread.
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Originally Posted by F. de Luzon
At present, I am inclined to conclude that "Malay Sundang" is a term used only by collectors to refer to a blade that resembles the Moro kris sundang and that the manufacture of the true Keris Sundang (not Malay Sundang) can be traced to the Mindanao, Sulu and Borneo area, as acknowledged in scholarly references.
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Yep, again, no one is debating this point here. The Kris Sundang (and you will find numerous other weapons in the area of the Philippines also called "sundang" given the generic nature of the word) is not originally an Indonesian creation. However, there is a form of it that is from areas of Indonesia and yes, the indigenous population of these areas that are collectors, in other words, Malay people, do refer to this now as a Malay Sundang. Frankly, what Winstedt has to say about terminology ( which is mostly the re-hashing of other European authors in the book section you have posted) in pre-WWII Malaysia is a fairly moot issue at this point in time. Language evolves. That a large community of indigenous Malay collectors now refer to their own version of the Moro kris as a "Malay Sundang" legitimizes that terminology for me. It is, after all, their culture.
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Originally Posted by F. de Luzon
Out of curiosity, has anyone ever considered the probability of Javanese, Sumatran, etc. empus emigrating to Sulu and manufacturing Keris Sundang in their own stylistic tradition there? Historical sources indicate that there were people from all over the world in Sulu at different points in time including Chinese sword smiths. If the Chinese could go there, why not Indonesians? What if these so called "Malay sundang" were also manufactured in Sulu but just in a different style and then traded? This can be the subject of further scholarly investigation.
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I think pretty much everybody who has been involved in the discussion of these weapons on this board over the years has considered this probability and in fact discussed it. Again, i am not sure who you are debating or trying to convince. However, i and many others might argue your conclusive question. Why is it not just as likely that after seeing Moro kris and accepting and re-dressing traded blades in Malay/Indonesian styles that smiths in various Malay regions would not attempt to forge their own on their home turf? Obviously the smiths of Brunei, Sumatra, Borneo and Sulawesi have proven themselves quite skillful blade smiths over the centuries. So why assume that the sundangs that obviously don't look Moro in origin had to be created by Javanese or Sumatran smiths still living in the Philippines who emigrated to, say, Sulu or some other area of Moroland? Frankly, as much as you are demanding "scholarly" references from me, nothing you have presented supports your idea that none of these "so-call" Malay Sundangs have blades that were actually made in Indonesia. I would think that logic would suggest that in fact Indonesian smiths would emulate the slashing sword form of the Moro kris and create their own take on it.
Again, no one is denying that a great many of these Malay Sundangs (and i will continue to refer to them as such because that is what Malays call them these days) do indeed have Moro blades. But enough do not to raise the question of where those other blades may have been manufactured. Assuming they are all traded blades from the Philippines does not make sense to me and does not seem to hold up to observational evidence.
