Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - Karud: the weapon that did not exist:-)

ariel · 22nd August 2017, 01:25 AM

OK, I am back. Snoopy passed the test with flying colors. She came home and immediately fell asleep. Good girl.

Again, thank you all for your feedback.

The goal of my little research was to trace the origin of the word Karud and to tell a cautionary tale how important it is to read primary sources with attention.

To my great relief and satisfaction nobody questioned the veracity of my analysis. This is already good:-)

All the dissenting opinions were centered around a different question: given that right now we all know that Karud is not a real word, but a mistranscription of Kard, should we still use it in our communications and publications? Several Forumites said that the word Karud is so deeply ingrained in our vocabulary and so convenient to use, that abandoning it will make communications difficult if not impossible.

Well, I think there is no reason to catastophise: multiple authors of important publications manage not to use the word Karud at all, designating these daggers simply as Peshkabz ( with straight blade).

Such is the case with the Polish book "Persian arms and armour" ( Ed. by A.R. Chodynski): see ## 177,179-181, 182. In that book, L. Kobylinski states that some examples of Peshkabz had recurved blades, while other had straight blades (p.65).
"Oriental weapons" by J. Caravana ( #59)
" Splendeur des armes orientales" (#209)
" Arms of the Paladins" by O. Pinchot (#3-107)
"Catalogue de la collection d'armes anciennes" by C Buttin ( ##699, 700)
"Contribution a l'etude...." By P. Holstein, (#141)
"Islamic and Oriental Arms and Armor" by R. Hales ( ## 19-21,24,27,32, 33, 36,79,140,167)
" Mortal Beauty" ( published under the aegis of Museum of Oriental Art in Moscow) #91
" The arts of the Muslim Knight" by B. Mohamed #183
" Arms and Armor from Iran" by M. M. Khorasani: #260. I think nobody would argue with his mastery of Persian language and arms :-)
He also mentions that locally Peshkabz with straight blade was called " shotorkosh", camel killer ( p.237)

As we can see, it is quite easy to communicate without involving the word "Karud".
And, for those who want a short and precise definition that is in complete agreement with the local usage, why not use
" shotorkosh"? :-)

On a serious note, nobody can ban a certain word from conversational practice. How about a compromise: using "Karud" in unofficial discussions ( yielding to the ardent devotees of this word), but avoiding it in any serious academic publication
( accepting the fact that it has nothing to do with local usage and became popular only due to phonetic mishap by the Europeans) ?

Although Shotorkosh still sounds grand! :-)

22nd August 2017, 01:25 AM	#35
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	OK, I am back. Snoopy passed the test with flying colors. She came home and immediately fell asleep. Good girl. Again, thank you all for your feedback. The goal of my little research was to trace the origin of the word Karud and to tell a cautionary tale how important it is to read primary sources with attention. To my great relief and satisfaction nobody questioned the veracity of my analysis. This is already good:-) All the dissenting opinions were centered around a different question: given that right now we all know that Karud is not a real word, but a mistranscription of Kard, should we still use it in our communications and publications? Several Forumites said that the word Karud is so deeply ingrained in our vocabulary and so convenient to use, that abandoning it will make communications difficult if not impossible. Well, I think there is no reason to catastophise: multiple authors of important publications manage not to use the word Karud at all, designating these daggers simply as Peshkabz ( with straight blade). Such is the case with the Polish book "Persian arms and armour" ( Ed. by A.R. Chodynski): see ## 177,179-181, 182. In that book, L. Kobylinski states that some examples of Peshkabz had recurved blades, while other had straight blades (p.65). "Oriental weapons" by J. Caravana ( #59) " Splendeur des armes orientales" (#209) " Arms of the Paladins" by O. Pinchot (#3-107) "Catalogue de la collection d'armes anciennes" by C Buttin ( ##699, 700) "Contribution a l'etude...." By P. Holstein, (#141) "Islamic and Oriental Arms and Armor" by R. Hales ( ## 19-21,24,27,32, 33, 36,79,140,167) " Mortal Beauty" ( published under the aegis of Museum of Oriental Art in Moscow) #91 " The arts of the Muslim Knight" by B. Mohamed #183 " Arms and Armor from Iran" by M. M. Khorasani: #260. I think nobody would argue with his mastery of Persian language and arms :-) He also mentions that locally Peshkabz with straight blade was called " shotorkosh", camel killer ( p.237) As we can see, it is quite easy to communicate without involving the word "Karud". And, for those who want a short and precise definition that is in complete agreement with the local usage, why not use " shotorkosh"? :-) On a serious note, nobody can ban a certain word from conversational practice. How about a compromise: using "Karud" in unofficial discussions ( yielding to the ardent devotees of this word), but avoiding it in any serious academic publication ( accepting the fact that it has nothing to do with local usage and became popular only due to phonetic mishap by the Europeans) ? Although Shotorkosh still sounds grand! :-) Last edited by ariel; 22nd August 2017 at 04:47 AM.