Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A. G. Maisey · 16th March 2010, 10:45 PM

You've given some valuable information here Kai Wee.

Until I read your post I had a somewhat different idea regarding the horn strip at a scabbard's mouth.

I have not seen nearly as many Malay sundangs as you would have seen, but I have seen more than a few.

I have never seen this horn strip at the mouth of a sundang scabbard.

All the Malay sundangs I have seen have been very old, and most have been in the collection of one old time collector.

I've come across the horn strip a few times, and invariably it has been an addition that permitted a blade to be fitted neatly to a scabbard that had not been made specifically for it.

In all the cases I have seen, that horn strip was fitted with a modern adhesive. That adhesive appeared to be two part epoxy resin in most cases, but I have also seen what appeared to be a super glue, probably Alteco, and what appeared to be a modern wood glue, PVA.

I have never seen a horn strip attached with the traditional fish based glue that was used in SE Asia, nor with shellac, nor with a natural resin, damar.

So, when you tell us that this horn strip often appears at the mouth of a sundang scabbard, do you mean that you have seen it on old, obviously original scabbards, or is it something that is frequently done in modern times to achieve a neat fit, as is the case with keris scabbards for normal sized keris?

If you have seen it used on old, obviously original scabbards, have you been able to identify the adhesive, and method of attachment that was used?

It occurs to me that if this was an old-time practice used for ornamentation, rather than for concealment of an ill-fitting scabbard mouth, a bond with fish glue could be obtained by inletting tongues carved to the base of a thick piece of horn, and these tongues let into the top of the wrongko. If this was done, we could expect to see some old scabbards where the horn strip has been lost, exposing the hole for the tongue. I've never seen this, but you may have, and if you have, this would verify that this horn strip addition did exist prior to the advent of moderrn adhesives.

EDIT

I've noted that you specifically mention sundangs in sandang walikat scabbards..
I've never seen these, but apparently you have seen a considerable number, and Dave Henkel also mentions that they are not uncommon.
Just how frequently could we expect to encounter sundang in sandang walikat?

Are they common, or would we see perhaps ten normal scabbards for one sandang walikat?

Can you quantify frequency of occurrence of the sundang sandang walikat?

16th March 2010, 10:45 PM	#35
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,704	You've given some valuable information here Kai Wee. Until I read your post I had a somewhat different idea regarding the horn strip at a scabbard's mouth. I have not seen nearly as many Malay sundangs as you would have seen, but I have seen more than a few. I have never seen this horn strip at the mouth of a sundang scabbard. All the Malay sundangs I have seen have been very old, and most have been in the collection of one old time collector. I've come across the horn strip a few times, and invariably it has been an addition that permitted a blade to be fitted neatly to a scabbard that had not been made specifically for it. In all the cases I have seen, that horn strip was fitted with a modern adhesive. That adhesive appeared to be two part epoxy resin in most cases, but I have also seen what appeared to be a super glue, probably Alteco, and what appeared to be a modern wood glue, PVA. I have never seen a horn strip attached with the traditional fish based glue that was used in SE Asia, nor with shellac, nor with a natural resin, damar. So, when you tell us that this horn strip often appears at the mouth of a sundang scabbard, do you mean that you have seen it on old, obviously original scabbards, or is it something that is frequently done in modern times to achieve a neat fit, as is the case with keris scabbards for normal sized keris? If you have seen it used on old, obviously original scabbards, have you been able to identify the adhesive, and method of attachment that was used? It occurs to me that if this was an old-time practice used for ornamentation, rather than for concealment of an ill-fitting scabbard mouth, a bond with fish glue could be obtained by inletting tongues carved to the base of a thick piece of horn, and these tongues let into the top of the wrongko. If this was done, we could expect to see some old scabbards where the horn strip has been lost, exposing the hole for the tongue. I've never seen this, but you may have, and if you have, this would verify that this horn strip addition did exist prior to the advent of moderrn adhesives. EDIT I've noted that you specifically mention sundangs in sandang walikat scabbards.. I've never seen these, but apparently you have seen a considerable number, and Dave Henkel also mentions that they are not uncommon. Just how frequently could we expect to encounter sundang in sandang walikat? Are they common, or would we see perhaps ten normal scabbards for one sandang walikat? Can you quantify frequency of occurrence of the sundang sandang walikat?