Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A. G. Maisey · 5th April 2020, 02:45 PM

Jean, lets be clear what we're talking about here:-

1) blade geographic point of origin

or

2) blade origin in point of time

or

3) blade classification in accordance with the Solonese system, ie, tangguh

I have stated my opinion in respect of origin in point of time for the blade, and in my opinion it probably belongs to the period +/-1850 to +/-1940, and I have given my reason for this opinion.

I have stated my opinion for blade origin in respect of geographic location, and in my opinion that could be either Madura or West Jawa, but frankly, I lean more to Madura than West Jawa.

In respect of classification it is stylistically Segaluh, and that makes it Tangguh Segaluh.

The dress of the complete keris is more likely to be Madura than anything else.

I have also stated my opinion that it appears to be highly unlikely that this complete keris was put together for an indigenous inhabitant of either Madura or mainland Island of Java.

Insofar as drawing a distinction between blades from Madura and blades from East Jawa, well, to all intents and purposes we're looking at the same thing.

Blades from Madura are inconsistent in style, there are a couple of styles that can be confidently attributed to Madura, and thus given as tangguh Madura. However, in reality there is no firm line between Madura and East Jawa, never has been since before Majapahit. Madurese people, including smiths, live all over East Jawa, but especially so around Surabaya and towards Malang. People from Jawa live and work in Madura, and have always done so. Madura is a part of East Jawa, there is no boundary between the two, and never has been, the strait between the two places was always something that facilitated communication, it did not impair it. Of course now we have a bridge.

There are blade styles that we can confidently classify as East Jawa, they tend towards a Majapahit form, there are other blades that we can confidently classify as Madura, there are still other blades that cannot be classified as either East Jawa or Madura, but could quite possibly have been made in mainland East Jawa, or in Madura, and the maker was most likely to have been Madurese no matter whether he was at home in Madura, or on the mainland.

The keris that you have shown a picture of certainly does have a Madurese dress, but the blade is not able to be classified as Madura, it might be a Madura copy, but stylistically, it most certainly does not belong as a Madurese classification, nor does it fit the parameters for a typically East Javanese blade, it tends more to North Coast and West Jawa. Again, based upon the photo, I would be very reluctant to place this as a particularly old blade.

5th April 2020, 02:45 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,698	Jean, lets be clear what we're talking about here:- 1) blade geographic point of origin or 2) blade origin in point of time or 3) blade classification in accordance with the Solonese system, ie, tangguh I have stated my opinion in respect of origin in point of time for the blade, and in my opinion it probably belongs to the period +/-1850 to +/-1940, and I have given my reason for this opinion. I have stated my opinion for blade origin in respect of geographic location, and in my opinion that could be either Madura or West Jawa, but frankly, I lean more to Madura than West Jawa. In respect of classification it is stylistically Segaluh, and that makes it Tangguh Segaluh. The dress of the complete keris is more likely to be Madura than anything else. I have also stated my opinion that it appears to be highly unlikely that this complete keris was put together for an indigenous inhabitant of either Madura or mainland Island of Java. Insofar as drawing a distinction between blades from Madura and blades from East Jawa, well, to all intents and purposes we're looking at the same thing. Blades from Madura are inconsistent in style, there are a couple of styles that can be confidently attributed to Madura, and thus given as tangguh Madura. However, in reality there is no firm line between Madura and East Jawa, never has been since before Majapahit. Madurese people, including smiths, live all over East Jawa, but especially so around Surabaya and towards Malang. People from Jawa live and work in Madura, and have always done so. Madura is a part of East Jawa, there is no boundary between the two, and never has been, the strait between the two places was always something that facilitated communication, it did not impair it. Of course now we have a bridge. There are blade styles that we can confidently classify as East Jawa, they tend towards a Majapahit form, there are other blades that we can confidently classify as Madura, there are still other blades that cannot be classified as either East Jawa or Madura, but could quite possibly have been made in mainland East Jawa, or in Madura, and the maker was most likely to have been Madurese no matter whether he was at home in Madura, or on the mainland. The keris that you have shown a picture of certainly does have a Madurese dress, but the blade is not able to be classified as Madura, it might be a Madura copy, but stylistically, it most certainly does not belong as a Madurese classification, nor does it fit the parameters for a typically East Javanese blade, it tends more to North Coast and West Jawa. Again, based upon the photo, I would be very reluctant to place this as a particularly old blade.