[Chris Evans]

Hi Gonzalo,

I have an objection to the use of the expression "thrusting sword", because the ropera was a sword which sometimes was used to cut. There are some atacks in spanish style fencing with the use of the edge of the ropera, althought it is mainly a thrusting weapon. Marc can say much more than I about spanish fencing.

However that may be, in Elizabethan England, the term "rapier" was used to describe a predominantly thrusting sword that could be fenced with - And we are using here an English word, probably an Anglicized one, in the context of the English language and a historical time-frame; So I feel that it would serve us all well to keep to this convention - Otherwise any sword capable of thrusting, from a two handed estoc used in armoured combat to the Polish cavalry koncerz, will qualify for the term, a most unrewarding proposition I suggest.

I emphasize that I am not arguing here about the origin of the word rapier, or whether they could or could not cut, rather am attempting to reduce confusion as to what was meant by rapiers in English at the time that they were used in earnest. And this in turn was prompted by questions re possible military usage of the breed.

Yes, the term "ropera" appear for the first time in an inventory of the belongings from the Duke Alvaro de Zúñiga in 1468, according with the article "La Espada Ropera Española en los Siglos XVI y XVII" by José María Pelaez Valle in Gladius (pag. 147). In french, the first reference is from 1474.

No. The Expression `espada ropera' was already used in "Coplas de la Panadera', generally attributed to Juan de Mena and written around 1445. But Mena's Coplas and both those dates that you quote predate the appearance of the kind of sword that the English recognized as a rapier.

Rapiers require skill and very specific techniques for their usage, so where are the manuals of the 1400's? Caranza wrote his famous manual in 1569, and his is considered to be the first significant substantiated Spanish treatise on fencing with the point. Though according to Castle there were supposedly three unsubstantiated manuals that predated Carnza, all mentioned by other historical treatises, but none that could be dated any earlier than the late 1400s or early 1500s.

I don't know what an `espada ropera' of the 1400's was, but if you do, please let us know and direct us to reliably dated examples. Or alternatively, to period manuals that clearly describe the weapon.

Since Spain is the original source of the espada ropera, it´s evolution began there, and it took some time and several transformations.

It is true that many held and still hold that Spain is where point fencing originated. However, beyond the undisputed fact that there were schools of arms in Spain in the 15th century, as in other nations/states, Castle tells us that we have little else to substantiate this view. The Spaniards overran the Italian states in the 16th century and by this means may have introduced point fencing there, but it is equally possible that the said play was developed by the Italians and adopted by the Spanish - Or, both developed it more or less simultaneously. I fear that this is another can of worms.

Cheers
Chris