Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - 18th century hanger with possible naval connections

Jim McDougall · 10th August 2016, 08:58 PM

Hi Mark,
So far digging into notes. This is obviously a hanger or other ranks sword of the briquette category (i.e. solid cast brass hilts) which expands to the various auxiliary and support units such as 'pioneers, sappers' etc.

One thing I found is that Mexican military categorization by units etc. is often reflected on weaponry with unusual variations of letters, dots or periods, hyper script and highly abbreviated designations.

For example, a British M1821 sabre found at battlefield at San Jacinto Texas from the 'Alamo' period I was researching for a museum had the inscription
R.P.D. Jo Ca No.19 on the back of the hilt
This indicated apparently Regimente Permanente Delores , Primero (first company, weapon number 19).
The Delores regiment was made permanent in 1833 (Alamo if course 1836).

There were apparently varying configurations of numbers and letters on various locations on the sword overall, indicating probably a kind of resume' of issuance.

In other notes I found that R, also represents 'zapado' (zapadors or sappers), while R L the letter R with hyper letter L smaller and elevated meant 'Cuerpo de Ingenieres ( Real Corps of Engineers).

With numbers like 7 for example with small zero up and left of letter stood for 7th (the small o =th)

With the numerous French weapons, and so influenced in the Mexican military it seems feasible this is a munitions level hanger which might have been produced based on their arms and issued into the Mexican military sometime 1850s (?).

Despite these possibilities, remember that Mexico had a navy of sorts which often included patrol vessels to guard their ever threatened coastal regions, not to mention piratical circumstances . I have long had a sword of U.S. M1840 type cavalry hilt which has a shorter heavy blade which corresponds to espada anchas with these kind of heavy blades, and I have seen termed as cutlasses. The hilts on these were more aligned with those of other weapons to the south in Mexico, and always seemed to indeed possibly have found use in Mexican maritime circumstances, which were often more irregularly operated.
The 'cutlass' with military (M1840 type) hilt does have mkgs of Republic of Mexico, but no apparent unit mkgs. so I do know its Mexican. Sorry I don't have photos of it!

10th August 2016, 08:58 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi Mark, So far digging into notes. This is obviously a hanger or other ranks sword of the briquette category (i.e. solid cast brass hilts) which expands to the various auxiliary and support units such as 'pioneers, sappers' etc. One thing I found is that Mexican military categorization by units etc. is often reflected on weaponry with unusual variations of letters, dots or periods, hyper script and highly abbreviated designations. For example, a British M1821 sabre found at battlefield at San Jacinto Texas from the 'Alamo' period I was researching for a museum had the inscription R.P.D. Jo Ca No.19 on the back of the hilt This indicated apparently Regimente Permanente Delores , Primero (first company, weapon number 19). The Delores regiment was made permanent in 1833 (Alamo if course 1836). There were apparently varying configurations of numbers and letters on various locations on the sword overall, indicating probably a kind of resume' of issuance. In other notes I found that R, also represents 'zapado' (zapadors or sappers), while R L the letter R with hyper letter L smaller and elevated meant 'Cuerpo de Ingenieres ( Real Corps of Engineers). With numbers like 7 for example with small zero up and left of letter stood for 7th (the small o =th) With the numerous French weapons, and so influenced in the Mexican military it seems feasible this is a munitions level hanger which might have been produced based on their arms and issued into the Mexican military sometime 1850s (?). Despite these possibilities, remember that Mexico had a navy of sorts which often included patrol vessels to guard their ever threatened coastal regions, not to mention piratical circumstances . I have long had a sword of U.S. M1840 type cavalry hilt which has a shorter heavy blade which corresponds to espada anchas with these kind of heavy blades, and I have seen termed as cutlasses. The hilts on these were more aligned with those of other weapons to the south in Mexico, and always seemed to indeed possibly have found use in Mexican maritime circumstances, which were often more irregularly operated. The 'cutlass' with military (M1840 type) hilt does have mkgs of Republic of Mexico, but no apparent unit mkgs. so I do know its Mexican. Sorry I don't have photos of it!