Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2023, 11:59 AM

Thank you for your response Gustav.

So in "The Javanese Keris" Groneman states that he commissioned the five keris, but in Heger's report Heger states that Prince Pakualam actually did the commissioning.

Thank you for this clarification Gustav.

I guess the Heger report is not available in English?

In respect of "long last luk", Gustav, I think you mean "long point"? and yes, all these keris do in fact have a long point, but as I tried to point out, that point is a long point from the Surakarta perspective, the fact that it is typical for Karyodikromo, simply strengthens the possibility that Karyodikromo was perhaps from the Godean school. He had to come from somewhere, and Godean --- a district in Ngayogyakarta --- is very close to the Pakualamaman, perhaps in past times it was under the administration of the Pakualamanan.

Thank you for advising that the keris on P.233 has been attributed to Karyodikromo by the museum which holds it.

Gustav, I do not for one moment doubt your assurances that Groneman invariably was referring to Karyodikromo when he used the terms "the empu" or "our empu", I assume you do have some sort of evidence to support your assurance?

Since Groneman was clearly using at least one other maker attached to the Pakualamanan , it would be really nice if we could have some sort of evidence as to whom he was writing about when he failed to mention a name. Perhaps you have access to some unpublished, or obscure reports written by Groneman?

Gustav, I feel that in your last paragraph you are being far too hard on yourself. In my opinion you have gained an enormous amount of keris knowledge & keris related knowledge simply by the diligent examination of published material, whether on-line or in hard copy. I have come at this subject over a 70 or so year period, and my efforts have cost me a couple of small fortunes, no education comes free, yes, I have covered ground that believe would now be impossible to cover. But you have come at the subject from a very different angle and have used different sources and within the restrictions under which you have been forced to work, you also have also covered a lot of ground. Don't be hard on yourself, you should be quite pleased with the progress you have achieved.

3rd January 2023, 11:59 AM	#34
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Thank you for your response Gustav. So in "The Javanese Keris" Groneman states that he commissioned the five keris, but in Heger's report Heger states that Prince Pakualam actually did the commissioning. Thank you for this clarification Gustav. I guess the Heger report is not available in English? In respect of "long last luk", Gustav, I think you mean "long point"? and yes, all these keris do in fact have a long point, but as I tried to point out, that point is a long point from the Surakarta perspective, the fact that it is typical for Karyodikromo, simply strengthens the possibility that Karyodikromo was perhaps from the Godean school. He had to come from somewhere, and Godean --- a district in Ngayogyakarta --- is very close to the Pakualamaman, perhaps in past times it was under the administration of the Pakualamanan. Thank you for advising that the keris on P.233 has been attributed to Karyodikromo by the museum which holds it. Gustav, I do not for one moment doubt your assurances that Groneman invariably was referring to Karyodikromo when he used the terms "the empu" or "our empu", I assume you do have some sort of evidence to support your assurance? Since Groneman was clearly using at least one other maker attached to the Pakualamanan , it would be really nice if we could have some sort of evidence as to whom he was writing about when he failed to mention a name. Perhaps you have access to some unpublished, or obscure reports written by Groneman? Gustav, I feel that in your last paragraph you are being far too hard on yourself. In my opinion you have gained an enormous amount of keris knowledge & keris related knowledge simply by the diligent examination of published material, whether on-line or in hard copy. I have come at this subject over a 70 or so year period, and my efforts have cost me a couple of small fortunes, no education comes free, yes, I have covered ground that believe would now be impossible to cover. But you have come at the subject from a very different angle and have used different sources and within the restrictions under which you have been forced to work, you also have also covered a lot of ground. Don't be hard on yourself, you should be quite pleased with the progress you have achieved.