Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 26th February 2014, 07:17 PM

I am hoping my post (#25) is visible here. As I noted the nonsense is this entire diversion to an unfortunate misunderstanding in which it was simply noted that an alternative name for Poland, Lehistan, was used in Ottoman parlance . What we are talking about is the 'karabela' sabre, and there are the inevitable disputes on the etymology of the term, as well as its application.

Ostrowski (1979, p.232) notes "..the etymology of this strange name remains unexplained" and that"...perhaps the village of Karabel in Turkey comes closer to probability though there is no evidence other than phonetic similarity". Further "...there is no agreement among Polish arms students in the scope of this term, which is often stretched to include all Polish parade sabres having an open hilt".

Again, remaining objective, a skill often in short measure in these discussions, regarding the floral device in the center of the crossguard in the example shown, in Ostrowski (p.233, fig. 22) there is a 'karabela' with a cockle shell device (Louis XVI motif) one of many French rococo designs typical of eclectic tastes of Polish nobility in 18th century. There appear to be other devices used in the same manner.
As noted by Martin, this same application of flora devices is found in some Afghan paluaors and North Indian tulwars, possibly an Ottoman derived affinity however these kind of elements are far too wide in scope to assign any directly supportable influence or connection .

The chevron styling on the grips appear to be an affinity associated with Lvov.

26th February 2014, 07:17 PM	#27
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,742	I am hoping my post (#25) is visible here. As I noted the nonsense is this entire diversion to an unfortunate misunderstanding in which it was simply noted that an alternative name for Poland, Lehistan, was used in Ottoman parlance . What we are talking about is the 'karabela' sabre, and there are the inevitable disputes on the etymology of the term, as well as its application. Ostrowski (1979, p.232) notes "..the etymology of this strange name remains unexplained" and that"...perhaps the village of Karabel in Turkey comes closer to probability though there is no evidence other than phonetic similarity". Further "...there is no agreement among Polish arms students in the scope of this term, which is often stretched to include all Polish parade sabres having an open hilt". Again, remaining objective, a skill often in short measure in these discussions, regarding the floral device in the center of the crossguard in the example shown, in Ostrowski (p.233, fig. 22) there is a 'karabela' with a cockle shell device (Louis XVI motif) one of many French rococo designs typical of eclectic tastes of Polish nobility in 18th century. There appear to be other devices used in the same manner. As noted by Martin, this same application of flora devices is found in some Afghan paluaors and North Indian tulwars, possibly an Ottoman derived affinity however these kind of elements are far too wide in scope to assign any directly supportable influence or connection . The chevron styling on the grips appear to be an affinity associated with Lvov.