Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2014, 05:49 AM

This extremely attractive sabre is truly an anomaly, mostly due to this blade which appears of laminated or Damascus steel, for me in my limited understanding of metallurgy, a most perplexing subject.

The hilt and scabbard do correspond to the Napoleonic sabre form identified, which is indeed French. The piped back blade, with a stepped back of 'yelman' form (a feature which in degree recalls Turkish blade styles) seems to have been present somewhat during these times. These are invariably European, and seen on British and German blades, and this pipeback, raised tip form seems to have prevailed through the 19th century contemporary with other blade styles.

I agree that as far as I have known, the pipeback feature has never been used on Eastern blade forms, though the Central Asian 'T' section has similarity.

What I think is interesting is that after the Napoleonic campaigns a good number of French weapons were captured by the Russians. Many of these, including these type sabres, were copied and produced at the Zlatoust arms factory.

A ceremonial sabre from Zlatoust is seen with blade having remarkably similar profile with the pipeback and stepped tip (Wagner, 1967, p.455, #155) however this sword's blade is etched with military motif etc. and dates 1821.

It is interesting that the Russian's had for some time had the patterned steel known as bulat. In the early 1800s in France Jean Robert Breant had begun experiments with Damascus steel based much on English work by Faraday.
The Russian work with Damascus was with Petrel Petrovich Anosov but not until mid 19th century.

So the question would be, is this a French sabre as properly identified with a blade experimentally produced through Breant? though I believe most of his work was post Napoleonic 1820s

Or, could this have been a post Napoleonic production from Zlatoust, using perhaps bulat, or similar process?

Then there is the question of the curious five crescent faced moons. While Peter Munsten indeed was one German smith whose blades often had these moons on them, these were primarily 'talismanic ' motif which were used in variation by various smiths and the engravers they used. While the French, as the Germans, used these kinds of motif (not as familiar with Russians but they likely did as well) it seems odd on this type of blade with patterned steel. I am uncertain on the other marking.
These moons and other cosmological and symbolic motif were used through the 18th century, but their use seems to have ceased by early 1800s.

So there remain many questions on this sword, but these details I hope might lead to some productive research and ideas.

18th August 2014, 05:49 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,746	This extremely attractive sabre is truly an anomaly, mostly due to this blade which appears of laminated or Damascus steel, for me in my limited understanding of metallurgy, a most perplexing subject. The hilt and scabbard do correspond to the Napoleonic sabre form identified, which is indeed French. The piped back blade, with a stepped back of 'yelman' form (a feature which in degree recalls Turkish blade styles) seems to have been present somewhat during these times. These are invariably European, and seen on British and German blades, and this pipeback, raised tip form seems to have prevailed through the 19th century contemporary with other blade styles. I agree that as far as I have known, the pipeback feature has never been used on Eastern blade forms, though the Central Asian 'T' section has similarity. What I think is interesting is that after the Napoleonic campaigns a good number of French weapons were captured by the Russians. Many of these, including these type sabres, were copied and produced at the Zlatoust arms factory. A ceremonial sabre from Zlatoust is seen with blade having remarkably similar profile with the pipeback and stepped tip (Wagner, 1967, p.455, #155) however this sword's blade is etched with military motif etc. and dates 1821. It is interesting that the Russian's had for some time had the patterned steel known as bulat. In the early 1800s in France Jean Robert Breant had begun experiments with Damascus steel based much on English work by Faraday. The Russian work with Damascus was with Petrel Petrovich Anosov but not until mid 19th century. So the question would be, is this a French sabre as properly identified with a blade experimentally produced through Breant? though I believe most of his work was post Napoleonic 1820s Or, could this have been a post Napoleonic production from Zlatoust, using perhaps bulat, or similar process? Then there is the question of the curious five crescent faced moons. While Peter Munsten indeed was one German smith whose blades often had these moons on them, these were primarily 'talismanic ' motif which were used in variation by various smiths and the engravers they used. While the French, as the Germans, used these kinds of motif (not as familiar with Russians but they likely did as well) it seems odd on this type of blade with patterned steel. I am uncertain on the other marking. These moons and other cosmological and symbolic motif were used through the 18th century, but their use seems to have ceased by early 1800s. So there remain many questions on this sword, but these details I hope might lead to some productive research and ideas.