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Originally Posted by David
Ibrahiim, are you saying that you wrote the Wikipedia page for the kastane that Gustav linked to above? I hope not because it is the epitome of why Wikipedia is so distained though out most of the academic world. This short entry provides very little real information other than description of what a kastane looks like, something which could be achieved far better simply by making a google image search to look at all the fine visual examples available on the internet. The article also provides absolutely no scholarly references or footnotes, a no-no even for Wikipedia pages, only providing links to mostly commercial sites. BTW, the Antique Roadshow (from the link on this entry) is notoriously bad at assessing ethnographic arms. I had to school them on keris when i went to the Roadshow and i was just in discussion with a guy who said they told him his Javanese keris was and archaic Moro kris. While the guy in the kastane link didn't seem to say anything particularly wrong in his appraisal he added no information regarding the symbolism of the hilt whatsoever.
Pointing to your "important museums collectors and specialists", the first description (Victoria & Albert Museum) is describing the ends of the quillons as "dragon heads", not the pommel. Seems to me these quillon beasts are generally makara or serapendiya in most examples i've seen, but this entry says nothing of the pommel, which seems to be the point of the most heated discussions here.
I'm afraid i have no idea what "St. Peterberg 1850" is supposed to be, but they clearly refer to the pommel as a stylized lion head just as so many others here have already maintained. It is again the quillon ends that are described as dragon heads and again, we here all seem to know better and recognize them as makara or serapendiya.
Chrispties (i can only assume that you meant Christie's) is a renown auction house that sells any sort of antiques and other items of value. As such they are really more "generalists" than "specialists" and i have found that auction houses in general are notoriously misinformed on ethnographic edged weapons so i am not at all surprised that they would misidentify the kastane pommel as a dragon head. Auction houses are most concerned with getting the highest price possible for the items they auction. Accurate descriptions do not always factor into that equation.
Robert Elgood's entry is really the only entry worthy of consideration here as it comes from an established and generally well received and excepted reference book on the subject of ethnographic weapons. Note that Elgood states that the pommel is invariably decorated with the snub-nosed Sinhalese lion, something which i believe at this point most of us seem to understand as true.
I'm not sure where you want to take this thread at this point Ibrahiim, as long-standing members who have tried to stay with this discussion for so long begin to flee, but i think that at this point you are, to coin a phrase,"beating a dead gargoyle".   |
Salaams David, Your post is bewildering. You continue to describe the ranks of forum members fleeing this thread (when in fact there is one only who has decided to call it a day for now. )
The Wikepedia link is by no means complete and it will mature as the detail comes in. I have planned a pictorial account though at the moment as you must surely appreciate there are conflicting Hilt styles as described ... and for example I can show a monster Hilt form and a Lion Hilt looking form... Right now, for example, I am looking at the two earlier extant variants which look like each being drawn from different Deities (the Japanese Museum and the art work of the Popham Armour)... maybe they were made in a different workshop and by different artists and with a slightly irregular idea in their minds of what Deity to fashion... artistic impression?
On the various comments by auction houses I cannot fathom your criticism since I never said they were written in stone...these are simply descriptions..and there are many more examples ...which was the reason for their inclusion..as having added to the conundrum. The inclusion of the Russian source at St Petersburg is easy to comprehend but I will add to that to clarify where a sword thus marked has arrived from... see
https://www.pinterest.com/karleighvestal/swords/.
By the way, without wishing to jump to the defence of auction houses, these big outfits often have superb research departments and highly specialized people therein.
Obviously the Elgood description is placed for accuracy but also to show the generic wording often used in the Kastane Hilt descriptions.
In reference to links on Wikepedia I beg to differ Sir, since the finest reference to the developing story is of our own Forum and this thread.
I don't think I am beating a dead horse moreover your comment may be misunderstood since we usually give constructive criticism and this is certainly not. The thread is progressing, albeit slowly, and as contributors we have a duty to expose the facts especially in an area so badly illuminated before.
Regarding the term Gargoyle please simply type into web search the term
Makara Gargoyle then after that is considered type in
Lion Gargoyle..Do you not then think that Gargoyle is a reasonable descriptive? I would add the word Grotesque as well.
The following are very recently added so how can you say the thread is not progressing? viz;
1.The excellent detail already exhumed plus the added details on "Rankadu Pattala" and the 1807 revelation that the sword was considered as a rank indicator are facts not well laid out before.
2.The detail on the Japanese Museum piece perhaps showing the blade mark now being traced is fascinating.
3.The Extraordinary blade possibly Storta is a delight to see... and ponder over.
4.The new picture of the Sri Lankan VIP wearing the Kastane is amazing.
I still have the drive determination and effort to continue even if others have not for now... and in an effort to display encouragement to others ... members and non members alike I continue to shine a light into the dark corners of this subject.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.