Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:48 AM

Old 19th October 2009, 07:31 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Fernando, this is a fantastic good solid arming cuphilt, and you know my weakness for these beauties!!!
Norman, excellent observations on that 'Apostolic cross' and very plausible thoughts on its application.
While these type markings were often associated with the blades of certain makers, it does seem, as thoroughly discussed over years, that they were applied in more of a talismanic sense in many cases. In the placing on this, it does seem that a device used by a specific group might be possible.

Clearly, the cuphilt rapier was well established in both Portugal and Spain at some time early in the 17th century, though many of these, were produced also in Spain's provinces in Italy. The thin, thrusting blade rapiers were used well into the 18th century in traditional application in Spain, but by the mid to latter 18th century the cuphilt had extended into the military sector, especially in Spain's colonies.

When I first saw this beautifully aged cuphilt, my first thought was that it was a colonial example, and though familiar with the 'Caribbean' or Spanish forms, its provenance to Portugal suggested possibly South America.
This seems to be one of the 'arming' type examples of probably third quarter 18th century, and the blade appears to be of the military type produced usually in Solingen in that time. The style of lettering in the inscription and the blade itself resembles the familiar Spanish 'dragoon' blades of 1770's with the 'Draw Me Not Without Reason' etc. inscription.

Interesting is the rolled edge of the cup, which vestigially represents the 'rompepuntas' of the early cuphilts which were intended ostensibly to catch the thin rapier blade of the opponent. These are not seen on colonially produced cuphilts of this period, and interesting to be seen in this application more as a finished appearance feature. The style of the grips are also a latter 18th-early 19th century affectation often seen on Spanish colonial swords with dual coloring. The lined elements on the quillons and knucklebow also resemble Spanish military swords of this period.

Thank you so much Fernando!! and good observations Norman.
I hope we can keep moving on this to see more on the interesting marking and what it might signify, and more on the inscription...would this be compared to any others particularly Portuguese?

All best regards,
Jim
.

19th October 2017, 11:48 AM	#158
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Old 19th October 2009, 07:31 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Fernando, this is a fantastic good solid arming cuphilt, and you know my weakness for these beauties!!! Norman, excellent observations on that 'Apostolic cross' and very plausible thoughts on its application. While these type markings were often associated with the blades of certain makers, it does seem, as thoroughly discussed over years, that they were applied in more of a talismanic sense in many cases. In the placing on this, it does seem that a device used by a specific group might be possible. Clearly, the cuphilt rapier was well established in both Portugal and Spain at some time early in the 17th century, though many of these, were produced also in Spain's provinces in Italy. The thin, thrusting blade rapiers were used well into the 18th century in traditional application in Spain, but by the mid to latter 18th century the cuphilt had extended into the military sector, especially in Spain's colonies. When I first saw this beautifully aged cuphilt, my first thought was that it was a colonial example, and though familiar with the 'Caribbean' or Spanish forms, its provenance to Portugal suggested possibly South America. This seems to be one of the 'arming' type examples of probably third quarter 18th century, and the blade appears to be of the military type produced usually in Solingen in that time. The style of lettering in the inscription and the blade itself resembles the familiar Spanish 'dragoon' blades of 1770's with the 'Draw Me Not Without Reason' etc. inscription. Interesting is the rolled edge of the cup, which vestigially represents the 'rompepuntas' of the early cuphilts which were intended ostensibly to catch the thin rapier blade of the opponent. These are not seen on colonially produced cuphilts of this period, and interesting to be seen in this application more as a finished appearance feature. The style of the grips are also a latter 18th-early 19th century affectation often seen on Spanish colonial swords with dual coloring. The lined elements on the quillons and knucklebow also resemble Spanish military swords of this period. Thank you so much Fernando!! and good observations Norman. I hope we can keep moving on this to see more on the interesting marking and what it might signify, and more on the inscription...would this be compared to any others particularly Portuguese? All best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:36 PM.