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Originally Posted by Kubur
Stu you are right the stars are abut different but enough similar to me.
Jim the sword that I posted is not mine but the whole blade is absolutely Indian (the cut, the ricasso, the yelman) and if you search a bit you will find hundred of them and dozen with the little stars.
Indians copied European blades.
The man in the moon on Stu's blade is very different from the European blades that I have with the same "moon face".
I will be very happy if Stu's sword has an European blade.
But please brings me evidences.
Now Jim look at the post of a guy called McDougall
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...olingen+Blades
Post 28: this one seems to me a serious contender and then maybe a proof that your blade Stu is European... OR Caucasian!!! Caucasian sounds good to me... |
Who is this guy called McDougall!!????
Kubur, seriously, thank you for linking that most interesting discussion, which really did cover a lot on the wide diffusion and copying of the crescent 'man in the moon' figure . There is no doubt this was widely copied, not just obviously Solingen, but in numbers of native shops in various cultures.
The crescent moon seems to have had a sort of universal application which worked nicely into the symbolisms of various religious, talismanic and occult followings.
What I have been referring to primarily the 'stars', again termed the 'cogwheel' colloquially in European parlance, and there again in European heraldry as the 'mullet' (fr. mollette) which loosely represents a spur.
I really do appreciate everyone's patience in discussing this dilemma in trying to determine which blades (with Stu's example) are indeed European as opposed to Indian made copies. There is no denying that Indian artisans were remarkably skilled, but we are looking at what symbols, designs or conventions were adopted by them in producing their own versions of blades.
I think the example Jens shows is interesting, and is of course more in regard to the proper position in viewing the blade markings, with point held upward.
It is obviously not meant in comparison to Kuburs blade (on a tulwar) wih lines of 'stars'.
As I had noted, these 'stars' (cogwheel, mullet) were not a feature I have seen on Indian made mark groupings. Again, as well pointed out and confirmed by Jens, the use of gold metal inlay (in these type marks) was not done by Indian makers. It was very much a European affectation, used mostly on the cross and orb or Passau wolf, but in this case obviously used more liberally in cosmological designs.
The blade fullering, linear mullets/cogwheels on Kubur's example (post #26) simply ring Italian, and my post illustrating 'storta' swords from Boccia & Coelho (1975) show these swords with similar blade features....as well as the profuse use of the 'stars'.
The roundel, as Kubur as pointed out several times (in Stu's example OP) seems possibly to have what remains of a crescent moon as also repeatedly mentioned as a possible enclosure in it. Again, it seems well established that the moon itself was widely copied in astral themes, but with the cogwheels, it seems to point to European application.