Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - African Three-Dagger sets

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2012, 06:20 PM

I am inclined to find dismal assessments of ethnographic weapons tossed into the 'tourist' category both discouraging and disappointing. Discouraging for the collector and disappointing in that these proclamations tend to be judgemental and poorly qualified.
It seems that these weapons are from a grouping which seems to include other Sudanese items, and it is clearly stated these are from an estate which notes these were collected in about 1920 from there. With this as a terminus post quem, it seems reasonable to consider these from between the Mahdist period and until then.

It was interesting reviewing those old threads, especially from 2005, when I had thought this thuluth acid etching, not engraving, was done at Omdurman presumably by armourers for the Mahdist forces. I have since realigned my thoughts in discovering that this type of decorative motif was associated profoundly with the Mamluks, who remained in somewhat nominal power among the Ottoman rule in Egypt. Many of them due to the strained relations there had relocated in regions in Dongola and Sennar in trade activity, particularly slaving. Here many weapons came in through Suakin and other avenues, and I believe the Mamluk style thuluth was applied to them for dispersion via trade routes. The Mamluks were routed in 1821, however thier influences remained influential it would seem.

In my opinion these weapons in circulation were undoubtedly used during the Mahdist campaigns, and heavily collected in the subsequent occupation and events through WWI , probably in degree as seen here until the 1920s.
Tribal interaction and warfare continued in rural and remote regions much as always well through the 1920s and later. There was dramatic cessation of arms production, especially swords, after the Caliphate, but daggers were still made. I believe the thuluth covered examples are among the earlier,probably late 19th c. items.

The lack of patination, as was recently pointed out to me in discussion, with these kinds of situations with items out of early collections, is to be somewhat expected in pieces that have remained static in reasonably unthreatened conditions for many years.

The early photo of Sudanese warriors with one wearing this dagger pouch around the neck is telling, and I think the idea that these are tribally significant as badges of rank or authority (as noted by David) is well placed. The use of various weapons and implements etc. seems to explain the variations such as ivory grips on haladies and the alem heavily covered in thuluth as a standard.

The other pouch with less significant, but traditional designs on the blades seems in context but not as highly placed. It is interesting to see the horned pommel which is remarkably similar to those seen on the Black Sea yataghans, which likely led to the suggestion these originated in North Africa. Plausibly, examples of the BSY entered the Ottoman and Red Sea trade from Turkish ports and perhaps influenced hilts in Sudan via Egypt.

Again, very nice examples Brian!

All the best,
Jim

6th December 2012, 06:20 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,742	I am inclined to find dismal assessments of ethnographic weapons tossed into the 'tourist' category both discouraging and disappointing. Discouraging for the collector and disappointing in that these proclamations tend to be judgemental and poorly qualified. It seems that these weapons are from a grouping which seems to include other Sudanese items, and it is clearly stated these are from an estate which notes these were collected in about 1920 from there. With this as a terminus post quem, it seems reasonable to consider these from between the Mahdist period and until then. It was interesting reviewing those old threads, especially from 2005, when I had thought this thuluth acid etching, not engraving, was done at Omdurman presumably by armourers for the Mahdist forces. I have since realigned my thoughts in discovering that this type of decorative motif was associated profoundly with the Mamluks, who remained in somewhat nominal power among the Ottoman rule in Egypt. Many of them due to the strained relations there had relocated in regions in Dongola and Sennar in trade activity, particularly slaving. Here many weapons came in through Suakin and other avenues, and I believe the Mamluk style thuluth was applied to them for dispersion via trade routes. The Mamluks were routed in 1821, however thier influences remained influential it would seem. In my opinion these weapons in circulation were undoubtedly used during the Mahdist campaigns, and heavily collected in the subsequent occupation and events through WWI , probably in degree as seen here until the 1920s. Tribal interaction and warfare continued in rural and remote regions much as always well through the 1920s and later. There was dramatic cessation of arms production, especially swords, after the Caliphate, but daggers were still made. I believe the thuluth covered examples are among the earlier,probably late 19th c. items. The lack of patination, as was recently pointed out to me in discussion, with these kinds of situations with items out of early collections, is to be somewhat expected in pieces that have remained static in reasonably unthreatened conditions for many years. The early photo of Sudanese warriors with one wearing this dagger pouch around the neck is telling, and I think the idea that these are tribally significant as badges of rank or authority (as noted by David) is well placed. The use of various weapons and implements etc. seems to explain the variations such as ivory grips on haladies and the alem heavily covered in thuluth as a standard. The other pouch with less significant, but traditional designs on the blades seems in context but not as highly placed. It is interesting to see the horned pommel which is remarkably similar to those seen on the Black Sea yataghans, which likely led to the suggestion these originated in North Africa. Plausibly, examples of the BSY entered the Ottoman and Red Sea trade from Turkish ports and perhaps influenced hilts in Sudan via Egypt. Again, very nice examples Brian! All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th December 2012 at 11:29 PM.