Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A. G. Maisey · 2nd March 2014, 10:48 AM

Thanks for joining our discussion Bob.

Actually, I have not given any definition of keris legitimacy, but rather, I have suggested that the idea of keris legitimacy varies widely.

I do not want to deliver any lectures on why one keris may be legitimate according to my own set of values, and why another is not. Rather, I would like to try to understand the many sets of values that people with a keris interest apply when they decide the question of legitimacy for themselves.

Yes, it is fair to say my ideas about the legitimacy of keris have been heavily influenced by my lengthy involvement with Javanese culture and society. However, as I have said in post #6 :-

"I personally do not see any answers to this question as either right or wrong."

My intention in beginning this thread was to try to gain some understanding of what people with a keris interest might consider to be a "legitimate keris" as determined by their own sets of values.

Since these people will be collecting for a number of reasons, and will have various levels of knowledge and experience, as well as variation in personal preference, it is to be expected that we will see a fairly wide range of criteria expressed.

I believe I've said most of what needs to be said about the idea of the "tourist keris", but one more short comment may be useful.

There is no doubt that keris have been manufactured purely for sale as souvenirs or decorator items, but changing tastes in the wider community, as well as the present day stringent regulations that many countries have in place on import of weapons, seem to have just about removed those "tourist keris" from the shelves of tourist centres in Bali and Jawa.

The ideas about older keris, which many collectors have regarded as "tourist keris", and I am thinking here of the well known "soldier keris", are possibly a creation of the collectors themselves, caused by the transference of their own values to an indigenous society.

Bob, you have raised the question of how to decide what to include in a beginning collection. I've been asked this question more times than I could count --- probably other long term collectors have also been asked.

In my opinion there is no definitive answer. You're the person who has to live with the keris, so you need to decide for yourself just what it is about the keris that appeals to you. When you have a firm idea in your mind of why you like keris, then you have a foundation stone to build on.

However, having said that, if you continue to collect for any length of time, I believe you will find that your tastes, and your criteria, will change.

You have raised another point I'd like to comment on, and that is in the content of the last paragraph of your post.

Within Javanese and other keris bearing societies there are undoubtedly many more collectors of keris than in all of the rest of the world.

At least in Javanese society, the reasons that these people collect, and thus their ideas on legitimacy in terms of their own collections, are as varied as are these reasons in the rest of the world.

2nd March 2014, 10:48 AM	#32
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,702	Thanks for joining our discussion Bob. Actually, I have not given any definition of keris legitimacy, but rather, I have suggested that the idea of keris legitimacy varies widely. I do not want to deliver any lectures on why one keris may be legitimate according to my own set of values, and why another is not. Rather, I would like to try to understand the many sets of values that people with a keris interest apply when they decide the question of legitimacy for themselves. Yes, it is fair to say my ideas about the legitimacy of keris have been heavily influenced by my lengthy involvement with Javanese culture and society. However, as I have said in post #6 :- "I personally do not see any answers to this question as either right or wrong." My intention in beginning this thread was to try to gain some understanding of what people with a keris interest might consider to be a "legitimate keris" as determined by their own sets of values. Since these people will be collecting for a number of reasons, and will have various levels of knowledge and experience, as well as variation in personal preference, it is to be expected that we will see a fairly wide range of criteria expressed. I believe I've said most of what needs to be said about the idea of the "tourist keris", but one more short comment may be useful. There is no doubt that keris have been manufactured purely for sale as souvenirs or decorator items, but changing tastes in the wider community, as well as the present day stringent regulations that many countries have in place on import of weapons, seem to have just about removed those "tourist keris" from the shelves of tourist centres in Bali and Jawa. The ideas about older keris, which many collectors have regarded as "tourist keris", and I am thinking here of the well known "soldier keris", are possibly a creation of the collectors themselves, caused by the transference of their own values to an indigenous society. Bob, you have raised the question of how to decide what to include in a beginning collection. I've been asked this question more times than I could count --- probably other long term collectors have also been asked. In my opinion there is no definitive answer. You're the person who has to live with the keris, so you need to decide for yourself just what it is about the keris that appeals to you. When you have a firm idea in your mind of why you like keris, then you have a foundation stone to build on. However, having said that, if you continue to collect for any length of time, I believe you will find that your tastes, and your criteria, will change. You have raised another point I'd like to comment on, and that is in the content of the last paragraph of your post. Within Javanese and other keris bearing societies there are undoubtedly many more collectors of keris than in all of the rest of the world. At least in Javanese society, the reasons that these people collect, and thus their ideas on legitimacy in terms of their own collections, are as varied as are these reasons in the rest of the world.