Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 20th October 2010, 05:25 PM

My Dear Sir Nando!
Nice riposte there on my little jab

, you too Sir David

!! Thank you guys.
Well noted there Fernando, the Knights Templar of course did not disappear after the 1312 intrigue (I think I had mistakenly noted 1329), and I think this speaks to the point bI was trying to make. There were other orders modelled on the Knights Templar and indeed a kind of subsidiary branch, in effect thus were indirectly under the 'Templar umbrella'.

Here I must note to you and Sir Marc (here in our little Round Table, and extremely glad to see you posting here on this Marc!! ) I cannot believe my failure to include these important Orders; The Order of Christ of Portugal and the Order of Montesa in Spain, which indeed did continue after 1312.

Here is where the complexity really blossoms, with the Order of Aviz; and in Castile, the Order of Calatrava; in Leon, the Order of Alcantara. The Hospitallers (of St. John of Jerusalem)who became known also as the Knights of Malta, along with of course the Tuetonic Knights and the associated groups in that continued Order.

While many of these were monastic orders, there were many which were military orders of chivalry, but all were essentially claiming peerage to the Temple of Jerusalem origins from which the Templars derived thier name.
The complex flurry of these orders, including a number of apocryphal ones, were the basis of my comment on the sometimes generally applied 'Templar' term.

Getting back to the significant cross on the pommel of our sword in discussion, the concept of swearing oaths on the hilt of a sword predates the Christian era, and naturally with the advent of Christianity and the symbolism of the cross, this became well placed on the swords themselves. As noted by Gene, in degree the very configuration of the hilt itself became a cross, with the guard (termed 'cross' in earlier nomenclature) becoming of course the patibulum.
The sword in those times of chivalry was a Holy instrument, and certainly the adornment with a cross would serve as such embellishment. As far as the use of silver, I would consider that with regard to the use of precious metal in placement of such a Holy symbol, it would be entirely acceptable in the sense of religious vestments being quite outside the stipulation for 'personal' adornment or show of wealth.

I think that the attribution of this sword to Knights Templar specifically is greatly enhanced by the presence of the cross, but probably most strongly supported by the provenance presented by Cesare, which notes the Templar presence in the region of the find and of the period suggested. We have shown that the use of the cross as a symbol on swords not only extended over long periods, but other cases of use by other groups.

I am hoping to direct attention to the markings on the blade I have mentioned, and discover more on them. As I have noted, these are known from Frankish blades much earlier, and I am hoping we can get some further detail on the marks on the blade here OK Cesare?

Thanks very much guys!! great discussion on this!!

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Fernando excellent images on these places, brings back great memories of our discussions on the Templars from years ago!!! Thank you!!!

20th October 2010, 05:25 PM	#33
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,740	My Dear Sir Nando! Nice riposte there on my little jab , you too Sir David !! Thank you guys. Well noted there Fernando, the Knights Templar of course did not disappear after the 1312 intrigue (I think I had mistakenly noted 1329), and I think this speaks to the point bI was trying to make. There were other orders modelled on the Knights Templar and indeed a kind of subsidiary branch, in effect thus were indirectly under the 'Templar umbrella'. Here I must note to you and Sir Marc (here in our little Round Table, and extremely glad to see you posting here on this Marc!! ) I cannot believe my failure to include these important Orders; The Order of Christ of Portugal and the Order of Montesa in Spain, which indeed did continue after 1312. Here is where the complexity really blossoms, with the Order of Aviz; and in Castile, the Order of Calatrava; in Leon, the Order of Alcantara. The Hospitallers (of St. John of Jerusalem)who became known also as the Knights of Malta, along with of course the Tuetonic Knights and the associated groups in that continued Order. While many of these were monastic orders, there were many which were military orders of chivalry, but all were essentially claiming peerage to the Temple of Jerusalem origins from which the Templars derived thier name. The complex flurry of these orders, including a number of apocryphal ones, were the basis of my comment on the sometimes generally applied 'Templar' term. Getting back to the significant cross on the pommel of our sword in discussion, the concept of swearing oaths on the hilt of a sword predates the Christian era, and naturally with the advent of Christianity and the symbolism of the cross, this became well placed on the swords themselves. As noted by Gene, in degree the very configuration of the hilt itself became a cross, with the guard (termed 'cross' in earlier nomenclature) becoming of course the patibulum. The sword in those times of chivalry was a Holy instrument, and certainly the adornment with a cross would serve as such embellishment. As far as the use of silver, I would consider that with regard to the use of precious metal in placement of such a Holy symbol, it would be entirely acceptable in the sense of religious vestments being quite outside the stipulation for 'personal' adornment or show of wealth. I think that the attribution of this sword to Knights Templar specifically is greatly enhanced by the presence of the cross, but probably most strongly supported by the provenance presented by Cesare, which notes the Templar presence in the region of the find and of the period suggested. We have shown that the use of the cross as a symbol on swords not only extended over long periods, but other cases of use by other groups. I am hoping to direct attention to the markings on the blade I have mentioned, and discover more on them. As I have noted, these are known from Frankish blades much earlier, and I am hoping we can get some further detail on the marks on the blade here OK Cesare? Thanks very much guys!! great discussion on this!! All the best, Jim P.S. Fernando excellent images on these places, brings back great memories of our discussions on the Templars from years ago!!! Thank you!!!