Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - Tulwar-hilted kukri information

Jim McDougall · 15th April 2009, 06:59 AM

I must say this has proven to be a most challenging thread! In all honesty I have only had cursory knowledge of both the kukri and the kora, and obviously my comments reflect the distance from the earlier research and study I did concerning them. As I noted earlier, and along with Richard, I have been trying to retrace notes and references....especially faced with the apparantly very focused work that Simon is using to carefully annotate the observations in these discussions.

After several hours I think I have made some progress, so will try to express my perspective concerning the comments I have made on the kukri and the kora in a manner that will hopefully be adequately acceptable, considering the well qualified company present in this discussion.

Some very good points are raised with the long standing questions on the veracity of the references that have long stood in place concerning the history of these weapons. Obviously, continued research (thankfully) will revise our understanding with new and presumably well supported evidence on the history of these and many weapon forms.

The comments I made earlier were based on apparantly Rawson ("The Indian Sword", N.Y. 1968), Egerton, discussions and material from John Powell, and private communications with the late Byron Farwell.....most of which took place over nine or so years ago.
Simon, apparantly that was where I must have gotten the thoughts on the use of the kora ( I agree with Richard, for the sake of this discussion it is better to hold to the generally held term) by the Gurkhas. It may have been from Brian, or perhaps Rawson, who notes on p.52, "...the kora is the battle sabre of the Gurkhas", and cites as his reference Mill & Wilsons "History of India", describing the Gurkha defense of the Tamta stockade in the 1814-16 war (Egerton. p.38).
Rawson again notes on p.53, "...the kora is probably the old sword of the Gurkhas and it may well be that thier phenomenal military success was largely due to their possession of such a terribly effective weapon".

Gonzalo, excellently stated thoughts on the proper approach to the study of these weapons. From what I have understood, again primarily from Rawson (p.54) the kukri type blade was among Hindu type weapons brought into the Nepali regions by Rajput ruling class in medieval times. He notes on p.52, that "...despite the fact that in modern times the kukri has come to be regarded as the national weapon of the Gurkhas, its form shows that it is a weapon of purely Indian descent, related to the kopis bladed sword of Ajanta, and the modern Rajput sosun pattah".

Further, "...the direct ancestor of the kukri was no doubt the sword with a kopis blade, but in the blades of certain kukris it is clear that the conception of the forward angled blade, not the pure kopis, underlies the form".

As you have noted, it is not so much the kopis, but the forward curved or forward angled blade, which holds very plausible influence. It is indeed unclear on the use of the 'kopis' by the Greeks, who incorporated many ethnic groups among thier forces and the forward angled blades seem more probably from the khopesh of Egypt, the sappara of Mesopotamia, the machaira of Iberia and the Celtibereans. The application of the term, as we have seen, certainly must have had a degree of misperception, between machaira and kopis in particular. It seems that the Greeks, with the exception of mounted forces, preferred the straight xiphos sword over the kopis or curved blade forms.
It seems this terminology was addressed by the author you noted, Fernando Quesada Sanz, in "Machaira, Kopis, Falcata" in 'Homenaje a Francisco Torrent' , Madrid, 1994, p.75-94.

Some very good information was posted on this forum on November 21st, 2007 in an article titled "The Origins of the Kukri" by V.K.Kunwor. In this it is noted that Alexanders cavalry carried the forward curved machaira, which is not of Greek origin, but probably Illyrian in form dating to 6th c.BC or possibly related to the Celtiberian falcata.

I feel like I have regained at least some perspective on the kukri and the kora with tonights revisit to old sources, and look forward to the much expected revisions which will I am sure render the material I have noted more up to date.

With all best regards,
Jim

15th April 2009, 06:59 AM	#26
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,765	I must say this has proven to be a most challenging thread! In all honesty I have only had cursory knowledge of both the kukri and the kora, and obviously my comments reflect the distance from the earlier research and study I did concerning them. As I noted earlier, and along with Richard, I have been trying to retrace notes and references....especially faced with the apparantly very focused work that Simon is using to carefully annotate the observations in these discussions. After several hours I think I have made some progress, so will try to express my perspective concerning the comments I have made on the kukri and the kora in a manner that will hopefully be adequately acceptable, considering the well qualified company present in this discussion. Some very good points are raised with the long standing questions on the veracity of the references that have long stood in place concerning the history of these weapons. Obviously, continued research (thankfully) will revise our understanding with new and presumably well supported evidence on the history of these and many weapon forms. The comments I made earlier were based on apparantly Rawson ("The Indian Sword", N.Y. 1968), Egerton, discussions and material from John Powell, and private communications with the late Byron Farwell.....most of which took place over nine or so years ago. Simon, apparantly that was where I must have gotten the thoughts on the use of the kora ( I agree with Richard, for the sake of this discussion it is better to hold to the generally held term) by the Gurkhas. It may have been from Brian, or perhaps Rawson, who notes on p.52, "...the kora is the battle sabre of the Gurkhas", and cites as his reference Mill & Wilsons "History of India", describing the Gurkha defense of the Tamta stockade in the 1814-16 war (Egerton. p.38). Rawson again notes on p.53, "...the kora is probably the old sword of the Gurkhas and it may well be that thier phenomenal military success was largely due to their possession of such a terribly effective weapon". Gonzalo, excellently stated thoughts on the proper approach to the study of these weapons. From what I have understood, again primarily from Rawson (p.54) the kukri type blade was among Hindu type weapons brought into the Nepali regions by Rajput ruling class in medieval times. He notes on p.52, that "...despite the fact that in modern times the kukri has come to be regarded as the national weapon of the Gurkhas, its form shows that it is a weapon of purely Indian descent, related to the kopis bladed sword of Ajanta, and the modern Rajput sosun pattah". Further, "...the direct ancestor of the kukri was no doubt the sword with a kopis blade, but in the blades of certain kukris it is clear that the conception of the forward angled blade, not the pure kopis, underlies the form". As you have noted, it is not so much the kopis, but the forward curved or forward angled blade, which holds very plausible influence. It is indeed unclear on the use of the 'kopis' by the Greeks, who incorporated many ethnic groups among thier forces and the forward angled blades seem more probably from the khopesh of Egypt, the sappara of Mesopotamia, the machaira of Iberia and the Celtibereans. The application of the term, as we have seen, certainly must have had a degree of misperception, between machaira and kopis in particular. It seems that the Greeks, with the exception of mounted forces, preferred the straight xiphos sword over the kopis or curved blade forms. It seems this terminology was addressed by the author you noted, Fernando Quesada Sanz, in "Machaira, Kopis, Falcata" in 'Homenaje a Francisco Torrent' , Madrid, 1994, p.75-94. Some very good information was posted on this forum on November 21st, 2007 in an article titled "The Origins of the Kukri" by V.K.Kunwor. In this it is noted that Alexanders cavalry carried the forward curved machaira, which is not of Greek origin, but probably Illyrian in form dating to 6th c.BC or possibly related to the Celtiberian falcata. I feel like I have regained at least some perspective on the kukri and the kora with tonights revisit to old sources, and look forward to the much expected revisions which will I am sure render the material I have noted more up to date. With all best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th April 2009 at 11:20 PM.