Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 6th May 2005, 03:22 AM

Once again Jens has found one of these obscure treasures!!! Excellent material Jens, and as always fascinating. If you arent producing breathtaking photos of incredibly magnificent weapons, you are coming up with terrific adventures in metallurgy and blade history. Thank you!

While this sword form from the catalog seems very much like a Kirach, obviously with tulwar hilt, it is interesting to see the application of a this unusual term 'sailaba'.

BTW, Rob T. ....excellent observations !! You are a brave soul to charge into the most nebulous areas of Indian swords, the 'sosun pattah' with actually very astute observations on both the swords originally posted here. Nicely done. Your note on the T spine is also well placed as this characteristic is most typically associated with Central Asian edged weapons, especially Afghan...and the Islamic sosun pattah.

Ian, thank you for the vote of confidence on my note taking at Baltimore, which proved not nearly as effective as I had hoped. Jonathan Barretts talk was spellbinding, and I couldn't even touch the volume of material he delivered in his talk...in my scrawl I couldnt locate any data on these transitional hilts

I should have brought a video cam!!!

Back to the 'kirach' : Rick why did ya take out the pictures of the extremely unusual and outstanding example of kirach !!!??? I think it was well placed here as we are looking at some fascinating hybridization of these Indian weapons. I feel pretty certain that your example is very likely a Sikh weapon from northern regions, and the hilt is one of the transitional forms between the traditional tulwar and the Hindu baskethilt that would seem to support that attribution.

Returning to the 'sailaba': These are stated to be from Hyderabad, which of course is in the Deccan, where generally the Deccani 'sosun pattah' are found with the Hindu baskethilt (Pant. p.80). It is interesting to note the so called Indo-Muslim tulwar hilt, as well as the T spine kirach type blade which suggests the influence of the Mughal courts of the north which favored the Islamic form sosun pattah (Rawson, pl.1). Of further interest is the scabbard which has the baldric type carrying rings mounted opposed on the throat of the scabbard, which Ian has mentioned, and I believe is an Arabian feature. Hyderabad typically used mercenary warriors from the Yemen in Arabia, and often made trade weapons for those regions. It would seem likely that influences such as these scabbard ring mounts might have been adapted there.

Since the 'sailaba' term and reference is pretty new to me, as well as the ongoing confusion on 'sosun pattahs' and variations of them and the kirach are increasingly apparant, I'd really like like to continue this discussion to see if we can clarify some of these.
Rick, maybe you could repost your kirach? It really is a beauty!!

All the best,
Jim

6th May 2005, 03:22 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,770	Once again Jens has found one of these obscure treasures!!! Excellent material Jens, and as always fascinating. If you arent producing breathtaking photos of incredibly magnificent weapons, you are coming up with terrific adventures in metallurgy and blade history. Thank you! While this sword form from the catalog seems very much like a Kirach, obviously with tulwar hilt, it is interesting to see the application of a this unusual term 'sailaba'. BTW, Rob T. ....excellent observations !! You are a brave soul to charge into the most nebulous areas of Indian swords, the 'sosun pattah' with actually very astute observations on both the swords originally posted here. Nicely done. Your note on the T spine is also well placed as this characteristic is most typically associated with Central Asian edged weapons, especially Afghan...and the Islamic sosun pattah. Ian, thank you for the vote of confidence on my note taking at Baltimore, which proved not nearly as effective as I had hoped. Jonathan Barretts talk was spellbinding, and I couldn't even touch the volume of material he delivered in his talk...in my scrawl I couldnt locate any data on these transitional hilts I should have brought a video cam!!! Back to the 'kirach' : Rick why did ya take out the pictures of the extremely unusual and outstanding example of kirach !!!??? I think it was well placed here as we are looking at some fascinating hybridization of these Indian weapons. I feel pretty certain that your example is very likely a Sikh weapon from northern regions, and the hilt is one of the transitional forms between the traditional tulwar and the Hindu baskethilt that would seem to support that attribution. Returning to the 'sailaba': These are stated to be from Hyderabad, which of course is in the Deccan, where generally the Deccani 'sosun pattah' are found with the Hindu baskethilt (Pant. p.80). It is interesting to note the so called Indo-Muslim tulwar hilt, as well as the T spine kirach type blade which suggests the influence of the Mughal courts of the north which favored the Islamic form sosun pattah (Rawson, pl.1). Of further interest is the scabbard which has the baldric type carrying rings mounted opposed on the throat of the scabbard, which Ian has mentioned, and I believe is an Arabian feature. Hyderabad typically used mercenary warriors from the Yemen in Arabia, and often made trade weapons for those regions. It would seem likely that influences such as these scabbard ring mounts might have been adapted there. Since the 'sailaba' term and reference is pretty new to me, as well as the ongoing confusion on 'sosun pattahs' and variations of them and the kirach are increasingly apparant, I'd really like like to continue this discussion to see if we can clarify some of these. Rick, maybe you could repost your kirach? It really is a beauty!! All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th May 2005 at 04:46 AM.