Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - Oldest dated flyssa

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2019, 03:25 AM

Its always great to see these old threads brought to life, especially as we have made so many new discoveries and perspectives in learning more on these many weapon forms. As can be seen, this particular one began in 2010, but we had been discussing these flyssa long before that.

The Calvert work is actually a rework of the earlier inventories by Don Juan de Valencia, compiled 1898 but actually completed many years prior. These works of course, though valuable references in degree, are not without flaws and errors. ….those pointed out here notwithstanding.

In our quest to discover the earliest known flyssa, the 1827 reference which refers to the one presented to King Ferdinand VII by Don Pedro Ortiz de Guzasti who was special consul to Algiers at that time. If the photos seen in this thread earlier of the example are correctly noted, we can see that the flyssa as a form was surely established by this time.

It has been held that the flyssa itself likely evolved as an interpretation of the deep bellied yatagan of the Ottomans (cf. 1580). As I mentioned some years ago, there is in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975) a knife/dagger from Naples dated 1774 (#774) as I have attached.
This has a remarkably 'flyssa' like look, and perhaps it may be considered to have some sort of connection to these edged weapons of Algeria and the Kabyles.
Whether the well known influences of Italian trade in the Algerian littoral might have influenced the form as evolved in Kabylia, or perhaps the Italians saw a fully developed flyssa form and it influenced a dagger form they fashioned. It would be hard to say, but the similarity is compelling.

The flyssa itself, has long been a puzzle as to how it was actually used. As far as I have known, there have been no recorded observations of these used in combat. There is I believe a painting showing Kabyles wielding these but artistic license cannot be ruled out. One of these captured by the French Foreign Legion in 1857 , though taken, does not indicate it was taken in combat. These are terribly unwieldy weapons, and have seemed to be a weapon which is that of a rite of passage, more ceremonial or traditional item rather than actually used weapon.

It would be interesting to see others views, and/or examples, and thought it worthwhile to reopen the discussion.

2nd May 2019, 03:25 AM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,731	Its always great to see these old threads brought to life, especially as we have made so many new discoveries and perspectives in learning more on these many weapon forms. As can be seen, this particular one began in 2010, but we had been discussing these flyssa long before that. The Calvert work is actually a rework of the earlier inventories by Don Juan de Valencia, compiled 1898 but actually completed many years prior. These works of course, though valuable references in degree, are not without flaws and errors. ….those pointed out here notwithstanding. In our quest to discover the earliest known flyssa, the 1827 reference which refers to the one presented to King Ferdinand VII by Don Pedro Ortiz de Guzasti who was special consul to Algiers at that time. If the photos seen in this thread earlier of the example are correctly noted, we can see that the flyssa as a form was surely established by this time. It has been held that the flyssa itself likely evolved as an interpretation of the deep bellied yatagan of the Ottomans (cf. 1580). As I mentioned some years ago, there is in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975) a knife/dagger from Naples dated 1774 (#774) as I have attached. This has a remarkably 'flyssa' like look, and perhaps it may be considered to have some sort of connection to these edged weapons of Algeria and the Kabyles. Whether the well known influences of Italian trade in the Algerian littoral might have influenced the form as evolved in Kabylia, or perhaps the Italians saw a fully developed flyssa form and it influenced a dagger form they fashioned. It would be hard to say, but the similarity is compelling. The flyssa itself, has long been a puzzle as to how it was actually used. As far as I have known, there have been no recorded observations of these used in combat. There is I believe a painting showing Kabyles wielding these but artistic license cannot be ruled out. One of these captured by the French Foreign Legion in 1857 , though taken, does not indicate it was taken in combat. These are terribly unwieldy weapons, and have seemed to be a weapon which is that of a rite of passage, more ceremonial or traditional item rather than actually used weapon. It would be interesting to see others views, and/or examples, and thought it worthwhile to reopen the discussion. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 2nd May 2019 at 03:47 AM.