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Originally Posted by Iain
Hi Ibrahiim, your tone is a little strange. Perhaps you are taking this all a bit too personally for a friendly forum discussion.
There's nothing complex or peculiar here. There are several points of view that have been presented in this thread, there is a lot of repetition in the presentation of those views. I've posted my views at this time, I see no reason to do it constantly. Personally, I'll be interested to continue the discussion when there's something else on the table - such as pieces with provenance or some of the museum documentation you've mentioned in the past.
The way to establish what has or hasn't changed is via pieces with provenance, period artwork or illustrations. For example you recent post with illustrations dated to 1840 at least show the state of the hilt style at that date. That's a great piece of evidence with an associated date.
I am simply curious to see pieces with provenance and associated dates for the same reason. I have no idea what museum documentation you have access to, how can I until you present it.
We've had serious, perhaps even fruitful exchanges about this in the past, it's a pity you don't seem to want to continue that judging by your last comment. However perhaps it was intended as humor in which case I can only say... I'm surprised you're amazed. 
In brief, the use of copied European marks applied locally onto these blades illustrates a link between local blade production, exposure to European blades and the associated connotations of quality perceived in the latter. Similarly the use of triple fuller and single patterns of a length that corresponds broadly to similar European blades found elsewhere in large numbers at a similar time period is not something that I consider coincidence. Particularly when the primary sword form in use before the inception of this design by and large is flat without fullers.
Obviously this is something that we don't and probably won't agree on. A differing point of view...
Nothing has been placed over your head and I think it's a pity you've chosen to interpret a single phrase in this manner. My last post on this thread pointed out differing viewpoints had been presented. Everyone is free to assess what is written here and reach their own conclusion.
Some may choose to engage with your posted material, as I do on occasion, others may not.
That of course has no influence on the validity of the content you post - however a lack of response does not imply you are correct simply because nobody has bothered to post a rebuttal. As far as I'm concerned, the more participants the merrier.
There are parts of what you present that I find intriguing and raise interesting questions, parts where I disagree with your conclusions and parts where I appreciate the fascinating insight into the weapons of Oman you share. Your passion is to be commended.
All the best,
Iain |
Salaams Iain, Your post has interesting points which I don't disagree with in the least... for example
In brief, the use of copied European marks applied locally onto these blades illustrates a link between local blade production, exposure to European blades and the associated connotations of quality perceived in the latter. I agree with that... but I don't see the blades as having been made in Europe and imported... in fact I see the blades as having been entirely concocted and designed for and by the new Dynasty in 1744.
Fullering certainly made the blades lighter and more flexible but I have no idea where the principle was invented or which direction it came from onto this flexi blade form. If I knew which Omani sword came first ... The Kattara(curved) or The Sayf(straight)... I may be able to answer that. I think there are a few examples of fullers in the old Omani battle sword... but again I need to check. At any rate I have just read of Mamluke swords see a part of the document of
Pisanellos Hat which for reference is, in part, at note below which has blades with grooves inserted much earlier. Still it's interesting since as you indicate a possible European link that could be the case in terms of the fullers or home grown or transmitted from Timurid/Ottoman or other Islamic Dynastic forms.
On the point of flat blades ... The Old Omani Battle Sword is, however, not flat. It has what I would describe an aircraft wing shape; ovoid and quite thick in the middle. It appears to be designed for slashing and chopping. That, moreover, is another subject covered over on "The Omani Battle Sword" thread...but which I am pleased to discus here linked as it is with the dancing sword.
No Iain! you are indeed a sword expert in your own right and any comments I make which may appear "sordid" (scuse pun) are meant only in the context of the short jibe ... "The parry"... oft used in swordsmanship and even more so in written exchanges... No harm meant at all... Nice to have your comments on board even if you don't yet agree...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
From Pisanellos Hat.
Note; 18. SABER
Ottoman, late 15th century(?)
Topkapı Sarayı Müzesi, inv. no. 1/397.
DESCRIPTION:
The grip is of wood covered with black leather inclined towards the cutting edge of the blade and with a flat topped pommel cap of brass below which is a large finger rest. The guard is of steel with quillons that flair very slightly towards their flat tips, the sides of the pierced quillons are decorated with gold inlaid panels forming circles and rectangles, inside the rectangles are steel balls. The large wide blade of steel is single edged with a double edged
section towards its point.
It has two shallow grooves along its length and a series of thin grooves running along middle of the top side terminating before the double edged section and is engraved on the right side with a roundel containing an Arabic inscriptions in a cursive script, and before the grooves a large palmette form. The scabbard is of wood covered with leather with steel mounts of the bar and fan clamp type.
NOTES:
Cemal Arseven attributed this saber to Mehmed I but his reasons for doing so are unclear. This is one of a small group of sabers with wide blades deeply engraved with inscriptions and floral forms that contrast with
a series of delicately chiseled grooves. Many of the other sabers in the group have large spear shape quillon tips in a distinctly Ottoman style.The deeply engraved fleshy leaf forms on one example suggest that the craftsman
was inspired by Eastern Anatolian carving such as on the facade of the mosque at DivriŞi dated 1228-29.
Although the carved palmette forms on the blade suggest a Timurid origin, this and the other sabers of the same type were probably produced in an Ottoman workshop.