Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A. G. Maisey · 11th July 2016, 11:24 AM

Gustav, thank you for your further comments.

Yes, the Portuguese did have trade contact with Banten, but that failed, and their major trade efforts were then in the Eastern Islands, however, their first contact with Javanese people was with the North Coast traders.

The Portuguese attempted to deal direct with the source of the spice trade, the local rulers of the Moluccas, but because of deceit and unfair dealing, the local rulers soon began to consider them as very undesirable trading partners, and they preferred to continue to deal with the Muslim traders, most of whom were based in Jawa.

From about 1507 Albuquerque was very active in trying to block the long established routes used by Muslim traders to transport the spices to consumers to the west, and in 1511 he conquered Malacca, following this he ramped up his efforts and soon had control of the sea routes that linked the Spice Islands to the Mediterranean and Western Europe.

Prior to this, the spice trade had been dominated by Arab peoples. Contrary to the belief that good Christians would not deal with Muslims, the good Christians of Europe were very eager to obtain cloves, pepper and other spices from whatever source they could, and this source was an Arab one, for hundreds of years.

The Portuguese in what is now Indonesia did have contact with Muslims and were not averse to engaging in trade with them when it suited their needs.

Yes, I agree, Francis Drake did not visit the Island of Sumatra, as I noted in my post #19, my memory was a vague one, and I do not doubt that the keris that was presented to Elizabeth was brought there by somebody other than Drake. Mostly I write my posts from memory, simply because I do not have time to check everything before writing, and it is certainly true that I can forget or confuse minor, non-critical details. Correction is always appreciated.

Francis Drake did not visit Bali.

There was book published a few years ago by a Canadian retired politician named Sam Bawlf, it has a title something along the lines of "Francis Drake's Secret Voyage". It was written for a popular readership and has a similar level of accuracy to that Gavin Menzies book "1421-- the year China discovered the world". In this book Bawlf makes some really outlandish claims and the book has been the recipient of a lot of academic criticism.

One of Bawlf's claims is that Drake visited Bali, but Drake in fact went nowhere near Bali, he crossed the Pacific, hit Palau, then sailed to Mindanao, the Moluccas ( where he loaded up with a cargo of cloves), Sulawesi, Timor, then along the South Coast of the Island of Java to Cilacap, where he took on water and provisions before heading home via the Cape of Good Hope.

Bawlf also claims that because Drake uses the word Gentile to describe the people he encounters at a place which is 7 degrees 13 minutes south, Drake is in fact talking about Hindus, because Bawlf believes that the word "gentile" at that time was used to describe Hindus, and only Hindus. This is part of Bawlf's evidence that Drake did in fact visit Bali --- even though the latitude quoted is not far enough south to be Bali.

Middle English was the vernacular in England from after the Norman Conquest up until the early 1500's, this was followed by a transitional period that lasted until about the middle of the 1600's, by which time the vernacular in most of England can be classified as "Early Modern English".

In Middle English the word "Gentile" meant either a person of any non-Jewish nation, or heathen or pagan, depending upon context.

The first appearance of the word "Gentile" given the sense of "a Hindu as distinct from a Muslim" was in 1727. (Oxford on Historical Principles).

Drake visited the Spice Islands in 1579.

Bawlf's claims and conspiracy theories make entertaining reading, but it is unwise to accept what he has written as accurate.

A far better source for Drake's circumnavigation of the world is "The World Encompassed", this was published in 1628 and was compiled from the notes of Francis Fletcher, who sailed with Drake. Drake's original journal was given to Queen Elizabeth 1, but it has been lost.

All of this has got precious little to do with Majapahit keris scabbards, but if we're going to quote history, it is probably just as well to try to get it as straight as we can, as Gustav has demonstrated.

11th July 2016, 11:24 AM	#21
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Gustav, thank you for your further comments. Yes, the Portuguese did have trade contact with Banten, but that failed, and their major trade efforts were then in the Eastern Islands, however, their first contact with Javanese people was with the North Coast traders. The Portuguese attempted to deal direct with the source of the spice trade, the local rulers of the Moluccas, but because of deceit and unfair dealing, the local rulers soon began to consider them as very undesirable trading partners, and they preferred to continue to deal with the Muslim traders, most of whom were based in Jawa. From about 1507 Albuquerque was very active in trying to block the long established routes used by Muslim traders to transport the spices to consumers to the west, and in 1511 he conquered Malacca, following this he ramped up his efforts and soon had control of the sea routes that linked the Spice Islands to the Mediterranean and Western Europe. Prior to this, the spice trade had been dominated by Arab peoples. Contrary to the belief that good Christians would not deal with Muslims, the good Christians of Europe were very eager to obtain cloves, pepper and other spices from whatever source they could, and this source was an Arab one, for hundreds of years. The Portuguese in what is now Indonesia did have contact with Muslims and were not averse to engaging in trade with them when it suited their needs. Yes, I agree, Francis Drake did not visit the Island of Sumatra, as I noted in my post #19, my memory was a vague one, and I do not doubt that the keris that was presented to Elizabeth was brought there by somebody other than Drake. Mostly I write my posts from memory, simply because I do not have time to check everything before writing, and it is certainly true that I can forget or confuse minor, non-critical details. Correction is always appreciated. Francis Drake did not visit Bali. There was book published a few years ago by a Canadian retired politician named Sam Bawlf, it has a title something along the lines of "Francis Drake's Secret Voyage". It was written for a popular readership and has a similar level of accuracy to that Gavin Menzies book "1421-- the year China discovered the world". In this book Bawlf makes some really outlandish claims and the book has been the recipient of a lot of academic criticism. One of Bawlf's claims is that Drake visited Bali, but Drake in fact went nowhere near Bali, he crossed the Pacific, hit Palau, then sailed to Mindanao, the Moluccas ( where he loaded up with a cargo of cloves), Sulawesi, Timor, then along the South Coast of the Island of Java to Cilacap, where he took on water and provisions before heading home via the Cape of Good Hope. Bawlf also claims that because Drake uses the word Gentile to describe the people he encounters at a place which is 7 degrees 13 minutes south, Drake is in fact talking about Hindus, because Bawlf believes that the word "gentile" at that time was used to describe Hindus, and only Hindus. This is part of Bawlf's evidence that Drake did in fact visit Bali --- even though the latitude quoted is not far enough south to be Bali. Middle English was the vernacular in England from after the Norman Conquest up until the early 1500's, this was followed by a transitional period that lasted until about the middle of the 1600's, by which time the vernacular in most of England can be classified as "Early Modern English". In Middle English the word "Gentile" meant either a person of any non-Jewish nation, or heathen or pagan, depending upon context. The first appearance of the word "Gentile" given the sense of "a Hindu as distinct from a Muslim" was in 1727. (Oxford on Historical Principles). Drake visited the Spice Islands in 1579. Bawlf's claims and conspiracy theories make entertaining reading, but it is unwise to accept what he has written as accurate. A far better source for Drake's circumnavigation of the world is "The World Encompassed", this was published in 1628 and was compiled from the notes of Francis Fletcher, who sailed with Drake. Drake's original journal was given to Queen Elizabeth 1, but it has been lost. All of this has got precious little to do with Majapahit keris scabbards, but if we're going to quote history, it is probably just as well to try to get it as straight as we can, as Gustav has demonstrated.