Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

RobT · 17th November 2021, 03:15 AM

Hi Ren Ren and koto,

Apologies for my tardy response to your efforts but I felt that I needed to research the matter further to clarify the inscriptions and to address koto's suspicions. I was greatly helped by a friend who understands Chinese characters and who did most of the "heavy lifting" for this project.

As you know, Chinese text is typically read in columns from the top down. In the past, multicolumn documents were frequently started with the rightmost column, with the column immediately to the left being the next to be read. Although there are no columns on the guard stampings, the right to left order is followed. This is why Ren Ren translated the number as 80 and koto translated it as 18.

The six character stamping is: 軍紅農工國中
Read right to left, the English translation is: 中國 (China [literally: Middle Kingdom]), 工 (Worker) , 農 (Peasant), 紅 (Red), 軍 Army
This agrees with koto's translation and Ren Ren's partial translation.

The five character stamping is: 軍師八十第
Read right to left, the English translation is: 第 (Ordinal prefix [for the number eighteen to make it eighteenth]), Eighteen (十八), Group (師), Army (軍)
koto translated the number correctly.

koto found it suspicious that the six character stamping refers to the Red (Communist) Army but the five character stamp uses the Nationalist 18th army name instead of the Communist 8th army name.
Wikipedia states that the formal name of the 8th army was "the 18th Group Army of the National Revolutionary Army of the Republic of China" but the Communists preferred to call it the 8th Army. Wikipedia further states that "The Eighth Route army wore Nationalist uniforms and flew the flag of the Republic of China".
I don't at all find it suspicious that a Communist led army that wore Nationalist uniforms and flew the Nationalist flag would stamp an item with the Nationalist army name. This military struggle was a collaboration of two foes against a common enemy so compromises were undoubtedly made. It may very well have gone something like this, "you guys get your stamp on one side and we get our stamp on the other". After all, their preferences notwithstanding, the formal name that both sides agreed to was the 18th Group Army. Furthermore, it is very likely that the factories making these blades had workers that were members of both factions. Given all the above, finding stamps catering to both sides on the same blade doesn't seem at all implausible.

Sincerely,
RobT

17th November 2021, 03:15 AM	#10
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 452	No Suspicions & Clarification Hi Ren Ren and koto, Apologies for my tardy response to your efforts but I felt that I needed to research the matter further to clarify the inscriptions and to address koto's suspicions. I was greatly helped by a friend who understands Chinese characters and who did most of the "heavy lifting" for this project. As you know, Chinese text is typically read in columns from the top down. In the past, multicolumn documents were frequently started with the rightmost column, with the column immediately to the left being the next to be read. Although there are no columns on the guard stampings, the right to left order is followed. This is why Ren Ren translated the number as 80 and koto translated it as 18. The six character stamping is: 軍紅農工國中 Read right to left, the English translation is: 中國 (China [literally: Middle Kingdom]), 工 (Worker) , 農 (Peasant), 紅 (Red), 軍 Army This agrees with koto's translation and Ren Ren's partial translation. The five character stamping is: 軍師八十第 Read right to left, the English translation is: 第 (Ordinal prefix [for the number eighteen to make it eighteenth]), Eighteen (十八), Group (師), Army (軍) koto translated the number correctly. koto found it suspicious that the six character stamping refers to the Red (Communist) Army but the five character stamp uses the Nationalist 18th army name instead of the Communist 8th army name. Wikipedia states that the formal name of the 8th army was "the 18th Group Army of the National Revolutionary Army of the Republic of China" but the Communists preferred to call it the 8th Army. Wikipedia further states that "The Eighth Route army wore Nationalist uniforms and flew the flag of the Republic of China". I don't at all find it suspicious that a Communist led army that wore Nationalist uniforms and flew the Nationalist flag would stamp an item with the Nationalist army name. This military struggle was a collaboration of two foes against a common enemy so compromises were undoubtedly made. It may very well have gone something like this, "you guys get your stamp on one side and we get our stamp on the other". After all, their preferences notwithstanding, the formal name that both sides agreed to was the 18th Group Army. Furthermore, it is very likely that the factories making these blades had workers that were members of both factions. Given all the above, finding stamps catering to both sides on the same blade doesn't seem at all implausible. Sincerely, RobT