[Chris Evans]

Hi Gonzalo,

What strikes me immediately about this discussion is that the key terms used, namely `gaucho' and `facon', changed meaning in the course of history. A gaucho in the colonial and immediate post colonial period was a horseman who roamed the pampas sustaining himself with wild cattle and horses - But by the second half of the 19th century, any agricultural labourer who got around on a horse was also called a gaucho. The eventual differentiation between a "real" gaucho and an agriculural labourer became problematic, as recognized by L.V.Mancilla, which can be read in Domenech's Dagas De Plata (DDP) pg 22

The same applies to the facon. Right into very recent times, any sizeable knife worn by an agricultural horseman, indeed agricultural labourer, was so named. Yet we know on the strength of historical research and surviving specimens that there were significant distinctions to be made.

But, to begin with, and as the specialists says, there were not knives exclusive to the gauchos, but for all the population who demanded or needed them.

If we are talking about knives in general yes, you are absolutely right - If on the other hand you are referring to what these days we call facons and the subject of this thread, then their use was more restricted, especially the longer ones..

The general idea of a gaucho knive is one of the typical romatic ideas of an idealized figure, sustained by foreigners.

Agreed, but not just by foreigners only. The Argentineans themselves promulgated this notion first, as amply demonstrated by their literature. Borges for one - He is pretty careless when it comes to describing bladed ware.

The facón was also used to butcher all kinds of livestock and it is usefull for the same purpose today, for all the people which has small amounts of animals and kill them for their own consumption. It is also widely used to kill or finish off a hunt prey, as the traditional hunting of boars and other animals with dogs is commonly practised.

The large facon, at first invariably made from discarded sword blades and later bayonets, was used primarily to hunt and slaughter wild cattle. A knife of large dimensions, actually more like a short sword, was required to cut the rear leg tendons of the animal so as to bring it down and afterwards to disptach it. For a more detailed description of this see Domenech's Dagas De Plata (DDP) pg 11 and for pics pg 111

This facon had little application for other rural tasks and once the gauchos ceased to hunting wild cattle, the facon became for most part a weapon and hence Rosas disdain for it. Domenech in DDP pgs 63 and 349 tells us that the facon is essentially a weapon - And that's what it became after the nomadic life style of the early gauchos came to an end with the depletion of wild cattle and horses, not to mention their being outlawed after independence.

And though the facón is not ideally suited for other tasks, it is also used to perform them.

Agreed. However, with the advent of modern ranching in the first third of the 19th century, knives much better suited for day to day tasks became normative - Again, refer to Rosas and his attitude to knives.

Today, the facon is not forbidden on the countryside as far I understand,

Nowadays agreed. But in the 19th century a different state of affairs prevailed.

Throughout the 1800s the gaucho, defined as anybody without fixed employement was arrested on sight and gang-pressed into the army or militias. During times of war, even regularly employed labourers were treated in a similar manner. The authorities had to contribute a fixed quota of recruits and they did so by enforcing the various laws, often harshly and unfairly. Whilst you are right in asserting that there was a general contempt for the law, which was often only oserved in the breach, nevertheless there was legislation re knives and their violent usage and this was enforced. Rosas mercilessly flogged any of his workers for knife related misdemeanors - He had himself flogged for a knife related pecadillo, just to set an example and to demonstrate that such breaches would not be tolerated from anyone, not even himself.

The facón can be on the limits of it´s size, but the caroneros were bigger, and made with discarded sword and sabre blades.

This particular specimen, if it was used in Sth America, could have qualified as either an oversize facon or a shortish caronero.

Bayonets of this size were carried by many thousand of mens on foot on the wars all over Europe and America during decades. Yes, it can be an impeding weapon in certain circumstances, but neverthless it can be usefull.

Of course a blade this long can be carried quite comfortably, but only if the sheath is suspended from the belt as a sword would.

.... For example, you say that the spanish navaja is not used anymore. Certainly, you are thinking in the big ones, more bigger than 30cm when open. But the spanish navaja is it not exclusively the big one. It is not defined by the size, but by other stylistic and constructive features.

Navaja in Spanish means no more than a folding knife. However, as we in the English speaking world generally use the term, it refers to clasp knives that replicate those of old Spain, with blades at least 6" long or longer and whicht had serious potential as weapons. In my posts I always went out of my way to make this clear. This is OT here, though I'll be happy to discuss this subject further in another thread should you wish to do so.

On other thread, you also said that the puñal criollo was not used anymore. I didn´t want to discuss your beliefs on that moment, but now I also tell you that the puñal criollo (and not gaucho), is often used by the argentineans.

I can't remember having said any such thing, and if I inadvertently conveyed such an impression, I'll happily retract it. I fact, I contend that the puñal so called, which is nothing more than a glorified butchers knife, is and was the knife most used in Sth America. As for the puñal criollo vs gaucho, you are repeating what I already said in another thread, and on this we are in agreement.

It is not a matter of any revival.

Yes it is.

There were always `platerias' (silverware shops) that commissioned the manufacture and sold traditionally mounted knives, mostly puñales, but in the last 15yrs or so, there has been a definite resurgence of interest and manufacture of all manner of cut and thrust weapons. In my observation, this paralleled the HEMA movement in other parts of the world, but with the addition of a regional flavour, emphasizing gaucho inspired themes.

But the production of this weapons has never stopped, and even if collectors purchase big caroneros, there are still other which are used, NOT in the saddle, as they do not use saddles, but recados.

Oh come on, lets not argue about the subtleties of the gaucho `recado'. The nearest English word is saddle, and in this context it surely suffices.

BTW. I am not sure if I understand you, but are you suggesting that facon caroneros are still used in earnest?

And why should they be called "replicas", if they are made in the interior of a national tradition, by argentinean mounters or bladesmiths who´s fathers did the same? Can we say that the modern bowies are "replicas" only to show and useless big knives, unconfortable to use and carry? In a certain way, they are, but still, they are also usefull, and a living and uninterrupted tradition. The same can be said of the khukri. There is nothing idealistic on it.

This is a matter of semantics, but to me, and probably most people, the manufacture of any outdated implement is replication. For example nobody would call a modern rendition of a cap and ball revolver anything other than a replica, even if it was made by the same factory that turned out the originals 150yrs ago. Should you call such a revolver the manifestation of a living tradition, you would be implying that it is still being used in earnest, which would be disingenuous.

I hold that the facon, as defined by Domenech, fell into gradual disuse after the early decades of the19th century, save as a weapon of outlaws, and dress accessory/status symbol, having been replaced by the puñal/cuchillo - IMO, any recently made facon cannot be called anything other than a replica.

Re: Robert´s facón. The handguard is forged, typical of a facón made from the second third of the 20th Century. Not uncommon.

As this knife does not bear any marks that identify its origins, we cannot be sure of its provenance. However, if you think that it was made in Argentina between 1940 and 60, can you direct us to similar examples positively identified?

Spartan, as many serviceable and not ornamental facones. Not unusual.

On the contrary - Discounting perhaps very modern works, I would suggest that this specimen does not fit in at all with the trends of the time span that you suggest. Discounting working knives, the 1940-60 period, was characterized by lavish silver ornamentation.

Hilt made with horn, which is VERY common on the argentinean knives.

I agree that cattle horn is very common in Argentina, but finding a solid piece of the size of this hilt is not that easy. But of course, if it was indeed made in the time span that you suggest, then the cutler could have obtained the horn from anywhere. The problem here is to prove that it was made in that time span. To me it looks like buffalo horn, but that's just from the photos.

The general form of the hilt is modern, I would say (and I can be mistaken) from the 40´s era. You can see many photos on new and not much old facons from the 20th Century made in this way on the same forum.

I have yet to see one that is similar in detail to this one and which can be positively traced to those years. Again, could you perhaps give us some examples?

Neverthless, I agree with Chris in one point: the main (but not exclusive, as on the Argentina´s northeast area it is still used as a weapon and a tool) use of the facón nowadays, is to show with the traditional dress. Sometimes also to show richness, as the best silver mounts could be very costly. And the best ones are mounted with the older and better blades available. We cannot criticize this practice, as here, the most searched swords are the most luxurious and ornamentated ones, showing the richness and power of the original owners

By north east you mean around Misones? I was there in 1990 and never saw a single facon. Plenty of machetes, a few smallish puñales and verijeros, but no facons. Same in the north west, in Salta and Jujuy, supposedly the centre of the modern "gaucho" revival. Couldn't even find a decent souvenier piece, only junk.

And what do you make out of Robert's other knife?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5456

Cheers
Chris