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Old 25th May 2023, 05:42 PM   #12
tarquinwj
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I know it is a bit late to be responding to this thread, but figured it might help someone to see this reply.

I am not really a historian, just someone who loves to dig into details, and have recently been doing a lot of research into cavalry carbine spring clips, including the one in this thread. This included studying the carabiners that Keith Dowen knew about (an impressive set from the mid 1600s held by the Royal Armouries), and many more examples from different eras. It was amazing to see such a beautifully detailed carabiner thought to be from such an early era, so I have tried to find out the origins of each of the features that can be seen in it, which can be used to work out how old it actually is. These are specifically:
  1. The swivel joint is not there, suggesting that this was a display piece only, not intended to be used in battle. (Date unknown.)
  2. There is a chain connecting the spring clip (carabiner) to the carbine sling (belt, baldric). (1751+)
  3. The spring clip has a captive eye connected to the chain. (1643+)
  4. The chain is connected to the carbine sling using a single connection plate with three screw holes. (Date unknown. Not 1641-1675.)
  5. The flat spring is not made from the gate itself, it is a separate piece of metal. (1640+. Not seen in ceremonial pieces from 1641-1675.)
  6. The gate has a very important dovetail latch. (Early 1790s+)
  7. The carbine sling and its ornamentation. (1850s+?)

During the 1600s, carbine sling carabiners had the swivel joint on them directly (point 1). This approach was used in all other countries until at least the 1700s, and most of them never used anything else until the 1800s. No countries used a chain, as far as I have been able to establish, during the 1600s (point 2). I have found a single British design from 1641-1675 that used a captive eye connected to a swivel joint (point 3), but even the ceremonial pieces it was used for had a distinctly different method of connecting to the strap (point 4) ("Military Illustrated" issue 95 1996, and "A treatise on Ancient Armour and weapons, illustrated, etc. (Supplement)", 1786). At that time, the strap was not even slightly as elaborate as this one (point 7), in spite of being created for a British knight.

I have found none from any country that used a chain during that century (point 2). In 1751, the British designs used a chain connected to the carabiner via a captive eye (point 3), and the swivel joint at the other end of the chain. In those cases, the gate was made from the spring (point 5).

In 1751, the gate did not have a dovetail latch (point 6). The dovetail latch was almost certainly not in use during the American revolutionary wars (1775-1783), because the Americans never learned about it until they purchased British swivel carabiners during the American Civil War 1861-1865. It is a useful feature, and they would have used it if they knew about it.

The British carabiner swivels developed in the early 1790s had dovetail latches (point 6). Examples which had been used in 1815 were drawn in great detail in "Soldiers' Accoutrements of the British Army 1750-1900", 2006, by Pierre Turner. The carabiner in this thread has that feature, so it is extremely likely to be from some time after 1790. In fact, it exactly matches the design that Pierre Turner depicted, so it is definitely that era's design. I have attached an image showing the dovetail latch.

The British light dragoon uniform used a carbine sling with a central stripe and two side stripes (like the one shown here) around the Napoleonic Wars (point 7). They used a red central stripe and black borders in the 1850s, and it is my presumption that the sling in this thread used to be red in the past, but that the red dye has faded to yellow, as it often does. The developments of these carbine sling colours can be seen here:
https://en.topwar.ru/191036-istorija...a-i-kaski.html
(The rules of this forum do not allow linking directly to the pictures, but I do not own the copyright for the pictures, and cannot upload them.)

These regiments have the right colours:
Princess Charlotte Augusta of Wales from 1856.
South Devonshire from 1861 (and possibly earlier?).
The Hampshire Regiment from 1895 (and possibly earlier?).
The Highland Regiment from 1895 (and possibly earlier?).
The Royal Welsh (or Welch) Fusiliers from 1897 (and possibly earlier?).

I am less sure about the three feathers badge (in spite of living in Wales), so maybe someone else can confirm my suspicions here. The three feathers logo (point 7) has the two ends of the "Ich Dien" scroll pointing downwards. Some of the crown ornaments (crosses) on the crown are missing, but presumably they used to be there originally. The shape of the jewels cannot be distinguished. This is the format used in the 1600s (not the 1500s, where one end of the scroll pointed upwards), but it also matches the format used much later, including the current three feathers design for the current Prince of Wales. Princess Charlotte Augusta never used the three feathers, as she was not the next in line to the throne - her father was the Prince of Wales, but she died before she could take that place. And I don't think that princesses use the three feathers badge anyway.

The Royal Welch Fusiliers did use the three feathers, and their design of the three feathers badge has the right features.

It is possible that the sling could relate to a celebration of any Prince of Wales, not a specific regiment, but it is most likely that the carbine sling dates from 1850 onwards, and was most likely a ceremonial piece belonging to the Royal Welch Fusiliers, a highly celebrated regiment, notable for the battle of Rorke's Drift:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rorke%27s_Drift

It would be interesting to know if the fabric got dated to something other than that.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by tarquinwj; 26th May 2023 at 09:49 AM. Reason: Adding an image
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