Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2009, 12:19 PM

I cannot date any of my older ones, Erik.

There are a few current era ones mixed in with the ones I've provided pics of, and I can recognise these, but generally its just guesswork with older ones. If the carving is smooth and worn it is certain to have a bit of age, but how much? Your guess is as good as mine. Regretably old hilts in Indonesia often are scrubbed clean and sometimes refinished with french polish or lacquer, so you very often do not have any patina to base a guess on.

I do not believe that reference to old hilts in European collections is a valid way to estimate the age of most hilts, for the simple reason that patterns and styles repeat over many years:- you can see the same patterns produced now as were produced +200 years ago.

The ivory and bone hilts are easier with the patina, because these don't get scrubbed or repolished, but even so, you're just guessing.

But they get up to another little trick with ivory and bone that can make a hilt look much, much younger than it really is:- they go to work on old worn hilts with a dentists drill and deepen and freshen up the carving, then re-patinate. Somewhat different standards in Indonesia in respect of these things.

Because of historical sources we can be pretty certain that the patterns go back to at least the 15th century, and very probably prior to that, but dating an individual hilt with any supportable accuracy is beyond me.

17th May 2009, 12:19 PM	#32
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,704	I cannot date any of my older ones, Erik. There are a few current era ones mixed in with the ones I've provided pics of, and I can recognise these, but generally its just guesswork with older ones. If the carving is smooth and worn it is certain to have a bit of age, but how much? Your guess is as good as mine. Regretably old hilts in Indonesia often are scrubbed clean and sometimes refinished with french polish or lacquer, so you very often do not have any patina to base a guess on. I do not believe that reference to old hilts in European collections is a valid way to estimate the age of most hilts, for the simple reason that patterns and styles repeat over many years:- you can see the same patterns produced now as were produced +200 years ago. The ivory and bone hilts are easier with the patina, because these don't get scrubbed or repolished, but even so, you're just guessing. But they get up to another little trick with ivory and bone that can make a hilt look much, much younger than it really is:- they go to work on old worn hilts with a dentists drill and deepen and freshen up the carving, then re-patinate. Somewhat different standards in Indonesia in respect of these things. Because of historical sources we can be pretty certain that the patterns go back to at least the 15th century, and very probably prior to that, but dating an individual hilt with any supportable accuracy is beyond me.