Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:57 AM

Old 21st October 2009, 09:37 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Superb research work Fernando! and thank you for sharing the progression of your work with observations, thoughts and details. This is very much textbook in pursuing the identification of weapons and learning the history as well, and truly the joy of them as they tell us thier stories.

The fact that these have the cuphilt feature simply reflects the traditionalism inherent in Portuguese and Spanish swords, much favored by the brilliant swordsmen who wielded them. I agree that the rompepuntas feature is indeed vestigial, or reflecting the presumed purpose on the earlier cuphilts. I think it is simply a more finished appearance rather than practical purpose such as catching blade points.

With the cuphilt rapiers of the 17th century remaining in use for so long, and these arming or military versions coming into use in the early 18th, it does not seem surprising that ambitious assessments for 17th century are made for them. I am inclined to agree for the Peninsular identity for this 'copos de tigela' and it is interesting to see that, as you have noted, the inscription seems to correspond to this 'double beamed' crucifix cross. With that it seems that this seems to suggest a 'type' of blade imbued with this talismanic element. Interestingly blades made in Solingen seem to have spurious markings employed for appeal to certain markets, i.e. the well known ANDREA FERARA blades, primarily found on Scottish baskethilt type broadsword blades; the SAHAGUM (N) blades, which seem prevalent on the Continent; and even in degree the true rapier form blades marked with inscriptions presumed Aiala et al. (JESUS MARIA) which were produced it seems even into the 18th century (these are not as clearly determined).
We have generally held for some time that the hexagonal (dos mesas) military blades with the ' no me saques sin razon/ no me envaines sin honor' motto, are most likely Solingen produced and intended for colonial consumption, being sent to New Spain in huge volume. These blades seem to correspond somewhat concurrently in the placement and style of thier inscription.

As Manolo has noted, the grip style seems to favor remounts in the colonial sphere, throughout the 'Main' and to the Phillipines.

I think the use of the cross or crucifix, is much like that of the cross and orb, used with mottos, inscriptions and invocations as talismanic enhancement, with particular devices or forms often associated with certain makers as they appear along with marked work by that maker. They are not makers marks in themselves, as you have well surmised.

Again, I really enjoy the teamwork and discussion really sharing ideas and observations in learning more on these weapons. While I've been on these trails for more years than I care to reveal, I'm still trying to learn, and I always encourage those out there reading to come in with us! One never knows where the vital clue may be found!!

All best regards,
Ji.

19th October 2017, 11:57 AM	#168
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Old 21st October 2009, 09:37 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Superb research work Fernando! and thank you for sharing the progression of your work with observations, thoughts and details. This is very much textbook in pursuing the identification of weapons and learning the history as well, and truly the joy of them as they tell us thier stories. The fact that these have the cuphilt feature simply reflects the traditionalism inherent in Portuguese and Spanish swords, much favored by the brilliant swordsmen who wielded them. I agree that the rompepuntas feature is indeed vestigial, or reflecting the presumed purpose on the earlier cuphilts. I think it is simply a more finished appearance rather than practical purpose such as catching blade points. With the cuphilt rapiers of the 17th century remaining in use for so long, and these arming or military versions coming into use in the early 18th, it does not seem surprising that ambitious assessments for 17th century are made for them. I am inclined to agree for the Peninsular identity for this 'copos de tigela' and it is interesting to see that, as you have noted, the inscription seems to correspond to this 'double beamed' crucifix cross. With that it seems that this seems to suggest a 'type' of blade imbued with this talismanic element. Interestingly blades made in Solingen seem to have spurious markings employed for appeal to certain markets, i.e. the well known ANDREA FERARA blades, primarily found on Scottish baskethilt type broadsword blades; the SAHAGUM (N) blades, which seem prevalent on the Continent; and even in degree the true rapier form blades marked with inscriptions presumed Aiala et al. (JESUS MARIA) which were produced it seems even into the 18th century (these are not as clearly determined). We have generally held for some time that the hexagonal (dos mesas) military blades with the ' no me saques sin razon/ no me envaines sin honor' motto, are most likely Solingen produced and intended for colonial consumption, being sent to New Spain in huge volume. These blades seem to correspond somewhat concurrently in the placement and style of thier inscription. As Manolo has noted, the grip style seems to favor remounts in the colonial sphere, throughout the 'Main' and to the Phillipines. I think the use of the cross or crucifix, is much like that of the cross and orb, used with mottos, inscriptions and invocations as talismanic enhancement, with particular devices or forms often associated with certain makers as they appear along with marked work by that maker. They are not makers marks in themselves, as you have well surmised. Again, I really enjoy the teamwork and discussion really sharing ideas and observations in learning more on these weapons. While I've been on these trails for more years than I care to reveal, I'm still trying to learn, and I always encourage those out there reading to come in with us! One never knows where the vital clue may be found!! All best regards, Ji. Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:46 PM.