Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:49 AM

Old 20th October 2009, 05:21 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Addendum:
Further research on the notes for this interesting crucifix marking.
Most of the markings attributed to the German smiths were actually cross and orb rather than crucifix, such as Heinrich Coll, and from I understand, these were affectations added with inscriptions, names or invocations. I am not sure about markings by Pedro Hernandez, nor the crucifix seen on the blade by Cleles.

The form of cross seen here is most interesting and it seems that the cross with the normal sized patibulum (main cross beam) as well as the smaller upper beam (titulus) is indeed an apostolic cross as used in Hungary. It is also known as the Patriarchal cross.

In this case, the cross in Patriarchal form, as crucifix, is known in Spain as the Caravaca Cross, and is associated with a miracle in the southeast Spanish town of Caravaca de la Cruz. The cross is most typically flanked by two angels, who in the miraculous event c.1231 carried a cross comprised of part of the True Cross. There were indeed associations with the Knights Templar during the 15th century when they occupied this town.

Apparantly, this cross is often employed in a talismanic or amuletic sense, and is noted as often seen in Central and South America as such, as a good luck device. It would seem that this would correspond with Portuguese colonial presence in these regions and the Portuguese provenance as well as the fact that this does seem a colonial America's weapon from latter 18th c.

It is well known of course that there are a number of fraternal societies and groups with profound associations to Masonic lineage, and often less clearly to the Knights Templar, so perhaps this weapon might have belonged to a military officer in the colonial regions with these associations.

I also found a note in "An Illustrated History of Arms and Armour" (Auguste Demmin, tranl. C.C.Black, 1901 ed. p.577) which illustrates a cross with two same sized patibulum (beams) and is noted as a mark supposed to have been on blades of Crusaders who had swords either made or stamped at Jerusalem. Demmin notes that he found a sword with such mark in the arsenal at Berlin, with hilt which suggested it was of 16th century. Perhaps the shape of the cross, if it does indeed correspond to the graphic without the vertical beam beyond the upper crossbeam, might be associated to this.

Hope this additional information might be useful, and adds to the outstanding mystique of this wonderful military cuphilt, which seems quite possibly of Portuguese provenance to probably South America.

All best regards,
Jim
.

19th October 2017, 11:49 AM	#159
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Old 20th October 2009, 05:21 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Addendum: Further research on the notes for this interesting crucifix marking. Most of the markings attributed to the German smiths were actually cross and orb rather than crucifix, such as Heinrich Coll, and from I understand, these were affectations added with inscriptions, names or invocations. I am not sure about markings by Pedro Hernandez, nor the crucifix seen on the blade by Cleles. The form of cross seen here is most interesting and it seems that the cross with the normal sized patibulum (main cross beam) as well as the smaller upper beam (titulus) is indeed an apostolic cross as used in Hungary. It is also known as the Patriarchal cross. In this case, the cross in Patriarchal form, as crucifix, is known in Spain as the Caravaca Cross, and is associated with a miracle in the southeast Spanish town of Caravaca de la Cruz. The cross is most typically flanked by two angels, who in the miraculous event c.1231 carried a cross comprised of part of the True Cross. There were indeed associations with the Knights Templar during the 15th century when they occupied this town. Apparantly, this cross is often employed in a talismanic or amuletic sense, and is noted as often seen in Central and South America as such, as a good luck device. It would seem that this would correspond with Portuguese colonial presence in these regions and the Portuguese provenance as well as the fact that this does seem a colonial America's weapon from latter 18th c. It is well known of course that there are a number of fraternal societies and groups with profound associations to Masonic lineage, and often less clearly to the Knights Templar, so perhaps this weapon might have belonged to a military officer in the colonial regions with these associations. I also found a note in "An Illustrated History of Arms and Armour" (Auguste Demmin, tranl. C.C.Black, 1901 ed. p.577) which illustrates a cross with two same sized patibulum (beams) and is noted as a mark supposed to have been on blades of Crusaders who had swords either made or stamped at Jerusalem. Demmin notes that he found a sword with such mark in the arsenal at Berlin, with hilt which suggested it was of 16th century. Perhaps the shape of the cross, if it does indeed correspond to the graphic without the vertical beam beyond the upper crossbeam, might be associated to this. Hope this additional information might be useful, and adds to the outstanding mystique of this wonderful military cuphilt, which seems quite possibly of Portuguese provenance to probably South America. All best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 02:37 PM.