[Jim McDougall]

In beginning this thread, the objective was to determine the use of European RAPIER blades, the extremely narrow types well known on cup and swept hilt rapiers, on Indian swords such as the 'khanda' and the 'pata'.

Further, to determine if these narrow rapier blades might have been used in thrusting, contrary to my own previously held notions on Indian use of the cut or slash only with no provision for thrusting.

The element of etymology as applied in my post, was toward the sometimes broad use of the term 'rapier' by some period writers, and whether reference to 'rapier' blades might well refer inadvertently to the heavier arming blades of European swords, which sometimes shared similar hilts in their original mounts.

My apologies to readers for the specious 'name game' which I may have unintentionally brought on by this reference to that etymological possibility. This has brought up the inevitably contentious terms which plague the study of Indian edged weapons, with 'firangi' at the fore in this case.

As always, I continue with research toward my original question, whether such narrow rapier blades, which are seen occasionally in khanda and pata, might have actually been used as intended.

One of the salient references I found was in Elgood ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004, p.184) where he notes, "...Tavernier * wrote that the European use of the point in fencing was unknown to the Indians in the 18th and 19thc. The Indians also used a number of cuts that were unknown in western sabre practice".
Further, "..Col. Blacker suggested that the Indian cutting stroke was the only one capable of penetrating the layers of cloth in turbans and quilted jacket armor. The native practice not only requires a stiff wrist, but a stiff though not straight elbow, for a cut that shall disable. If correct this would explain the popularity of the 'gauntlet' sword'.

* Tavernier: Jean Baptiste Tavernier (1605-1689), French gem merchant and traveler, known for his extensive journeys, profound skills at observation , perhaps most famously for the blue diamond he acquired in 1666, which became the notorious Hope Diamond. His journeys in India c. 1630-68.

OBSERVATION:
It would seem that referring to the turban and type of quilted armor were the defenses that the warriors attacking were up against, and clearly a narrow rapier blade would not achieve the necessary result in penetration.....it was the powerful cut of the warrior which did.

Another reference to the blades in the gauntlet swords (pata) in Pant (op.cit. p.62) notes;
"..the patta has a long flexible, regularly tapering straight steel blade, almost always double edged and frequently of European make- generally Italian or Spanish FLAT RAPIER blades". (caps are mine).

OBSERVATION:
Here, in foot note, it states a pata bearing the sign of Andrea Ferara , the famed 16th century Venetian smith appears, signature forged.
This of course denotes one of the typical 18th century Solingen made blades which were double edged arming or 'broadsword' blades typically seen in Scottish basket hilts.
A pata I have has typical Solingen astral figures engraved on the blade, being another of these 18th century blades used on these swords.

The term 'flat' but paired with the word rapier, is exactly what I mean by the misuse of the rapier term. These 'flat' blades were the DE arming blades discussed here, and I would point out that in the 18th c. Spain was NOT producing blades, they were made in Solingen for Spain, and they were NOT rapier blades. The only 'rapier' blades made were narrow and not 'flat' but with distinct section. Italian blades were typically of the schiavona type, not flat but lenticular, and broadsword type (DE).

Turning to the khanda:

In Pant (p.183), "...the khanda blade, while remaining true to its form, was made with a longer blade after the arrival of the Europeans in India as can be seen in the illustrations of warriors in the 'Nujum al Ulum' which shows longer and thinner blades in the hands of warriors wearing the tall cap of Vijayanagara. The same thin khanda blade also appears in the 'Hamzanama'.The length and narrowness and SPOON SHAPED tip of the blade makes these easily recognizable.
No doubt this was the counter the extremely long blades (by Indian standards) of the European RAPIERS".

OBSERVATION:
Obviously this reference is to the arrival of the Portuguese in the 16th c.
The rapiers were known to reach extraordinary lengths, and were notably impressive to the Marathas. While the khanda seems to have maintained its traditional hilt, by the 17th it had become the 'Hindu basket hilt' with addition of a knuckle (finger) guard between the plated cross guard and pommel.