Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 30th May 2014, 02:28 AM

Norman,
Thank you so much for showing us that example, and for the note on the adaptions often used as these hangers were in service.

I have finally excavated my copy of 'Neumann' and looking into the examples seen have revealed that the 'M1742' and 'M1751' were indeed as I noted, give these classifications by later collectors using period artwork as a guide.
While some of these hangers were made in Germany, most were British and it seems these guards were typically in a 'heart shape' though quite similar to this one, and invariably in brass (both '1742; and '1751') .

The so called '1742' (Neumann 10.S) gained that classification from its representation in painting in the Duke of Cumberlands 'Representation of His Majesty's Forces' of that year. Hangers of this form (no branches on guard) ranged from 1725-50.
It should of course be remembered that the blades used in these hangers were often rehilted or used for various models from stores.

Example 12.S (p.65) is English c.1735-55, and appears most like this example of Ken's with the exception it is like the others, with brass hilt.
Here it is noted that it is a pattern used by grenadiers of the 3rd Regiment of Foot as seen in one of David Morier's paintings of 1751. In this case the single branch on the hilt is present.

In similar instance, (Neumann 19.S) is another of these hangers, but with two branches , and seen in the Morier 1751 paintings, here noting that this two branch example is the one which became known as the M1751. The range on these is shown as 1750-1768 and these were used extensively in the French-Indian and Revolutionary Wars.

This and several examples shown in Neumann all have blades by Samuel Harvey of Birmingham, and with similar fuller along back edge and are marked with the running wolf mark.

It seems to me that the Samuel Harvey blades with running wolf were prevalent right at about mid 18th century, and must have been in considerable volume with this single fuller against back of the blade. It is hard to guage of course whether these were in their original hilts or mounted as others were produced or refurbished. The running wolf was adopted by Harvey as noted, in my opinion reflecting the earlier German blades made in England (bushy tail as opposed to thin tail on Germany forms earlier).

What seems important is this unusual iron guard as opposed to the prevalent brass guards. The only two examples with iron were one quite early 18th c. and another . 1740s.

Obviously a variant using a Harvey blade, this most resembles the M1751 as with branch on the guard, and probably for grenadiers or fusiliers of the 1740-50 period. These type hangers were in use long before the artwork of 1740s and 50s, and the Harvey blades c.1750.

Beautifully patinated, please leave as except removing active rust as has been done.

30th May 2014, 02:28 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,751	Norman, Thank you so much for showing us that example, and for the note on the adaptions often used as these hangers were in service. I have finally excavated my copy of 'Neumann' and looking into the examples seen have revealed that the 'M1742' and 'M1751' were indeed as I noted, give these classifications by later collectors using period artwork as a guide. While some of these hangers were made in Germany, most were British and it seems these guards were typically in a 'heart shape' though quite similar to this one, and invariably in brass (both '1742; and '1751') . The so called '1742' (Neumann 10.S) gained that classification from its representation in painting in the Duke of Cumberlands 'Representation of His Majesty's Forces' of that year. Hangers of this form (no branches on guard) ranged from 1725-50. It should of course be remembered that the blades used in these hangers were often rehilted or used for various models from stores. Example 12.S (p.65) is English c.1735-55, and appears most like this example of Ken's with the exception it is like the others, with brass hilt. Here it is noted that it is a pattern used by grenadiers of the 3rd Regiment of Foot as seen in one of David Morier's paintings of 1751. In this case the single branch on the hilt is present. In similar instance, (Neumann 19.S) is another of these hangers, but with two branches , and seen in the Morier 1751 paintings, here noting that this two branch example is the one which became known as the M1751. The range on these is shown as 1750-1768 and these were used extensively in the French-Indian and Revolutionary Wars. This and several examples shown in Neumann all have blades by Samuel Harvey of Birmingham, and with similar fuller along back edge and are marked with the running wolf mark. It seems to me that the Samuel Harvey blades with running wolf were prevalent right at about mid 18th century, and must have been in considerable volume with this single fuller against back of the blade. It is hard to guage of course whether these were in their original hilts or mounted as others were produced or refurbished. The running wolf was adopted by Harvey as noted, in my opinion reflecting the earlier German blades made in England (bushy tail as opposed to thin tail on Germany forms earlier). What seems important is this unusual iron guard as opposed to the prevalent brass guards. The only two examples with iron were one quite early 18th c. and another . 1740s. Obviously a variant using a Harvey blade, this most resembles the M1751 as with branch on the guard, and probably for grenadiers or fusiliers of the 1740-50 period. These type hangers were in use long before the artwork of 1740s and 50s, and the Harvey blades c.1750. Beautifully patinated, please leave as except removing active rust as has been done.