Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A. G. Maisey · 2nd January 2014, 12:38 PM

I do agree with you Ariel that the word I chose to use could be a confusing one, however, I did take quite a long time to consider which single word I should use to express the essence of my question, and I chose the word "legitimate" precisely because of its wide range of application, and the foundation of the word, as you so correctly point out is in the concept of law, which is also the foundation stone of the existence of the keris.

I would like to address only the existence of the Modern Keris in the context of its foundation in regulation. When the Modern Keris was born from its ancestor form that we now call the "Keris Buda", there appears to be a solid argument to support the idea that this was not a process of illegitimate birth, but rather a legitimate and planned conception for a specific purpose. The birth of the Modern Keris seems to be rooted firmly in the law of the Javanese-Hindu hierarchical system.

Then there is the system of regulation that defines what can, and cannot be considered a proper form for a keris. I do appreciate Ariel, that you are not deeply involved with the keris, but contrary to what you believe, the keris is rooted in law and regulation. One of the natures of the keris is as a societal regulator, a nature that can hardly have force in the absence of law.

When we consider the multitude of other ways in which the word "legitimate" can be applied we have a word that can provide a descriptor for almost any concept of legitimacy that we wish to apply to the keris. The point I wish to make is this:- although "legitimate" may have its roots in "lex", in current usage it can be applied in a very much broader sense.

This was the usage I was aiming for, as I did not wish to constrain discussion to that tired old parade of opinions on why each of us think some particular elements of something or other make it a fitting addition to our personal collections. I wanted to move away from the collector-centric thought process.

A quick search of an authoritative dictionary will reveal that "legitimate" can be taken as :-

lawful, conforming to rule or law, proper, normal, regular, of a standard type, logically admissible, justifiable.

My preferred source is the Oxford on Historical Principles, but I believe any major dictionary will provide a similar list of applications.

So you see, my choice of words was not perhaps as haphazard as it may have appeared at first glance, and in fact it demands a proper consideration of the actual applications of the word "legitimate".

I am relatively certain that nobody grabbed their favourite dictionary before writing a response to my question, but even so, it seems that virtually everybody has responded in a sense that legitimises the use of the word "legitimate".

In your response you have touched on the fact that time alters perception, and that any individual or group of people can determine for themselves what it is that establishes the parameters of legitimacy. Your summing up is precisely in line with the opinions of other respondents, and also with my opinions.

However, although

"--- we cannot impose our criteria on Jawanese natives, but they in turn cannot impose their definitions ( and there are more than one cares to consider:-)) on the non-Jawanese collectors---"

In respect of the keris, and most particularly in respect of the Javanese keris, it is essential for us to recognise that we are dealing with much more than a simple weapon, or even a totemic symbol. We are dealing with what is arguably the major icon of a culture, and that icon is no less so today than it has been at any time in its past. Its nature may have altered, but its iconic status is living and remains intact.

Collectors of anything invent their own rules of legitimacy, rules which very often have no relevance at all to the legitimacy of the cultural owners of that which they collect. Dr. David has brought this out very clearly and concisely in what he has contributed to this thread.

So we have a situation where the ideas of collectors, especially collectors who are outside Javanese society, are not at all relevant to the values of the Javanese people who are most closely associated with the cultural values of Jawa. However, the collector must be at least somewhat aware of the values of those Javanese people, for if he fails to gain such an awareness he has negated any claim to knowledge of that which he collects.

Put simply:- the values of collectors of keris are of less than no importance to the Javanese, but the Javanese are of immense importance to collectors of keris.

2nd January 2014, 12:38 PM	#28
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	I do agree with you Ariel that the word I chose to use could be a confusing one, however, I did take quite a long time to consider which single word I should use to express the essence of my question, and I chose the word "legitimate" precisely because of its wide range of application, and the foundation of the word, as you so correctly point out is in the concept of law, which is also the foundation stone of the existence of the keris. I would like to address only the existence of the Modern Keris in the context of its foundation in regulation. When the Modern Keris was born from its ancestor form that we now call the "Keris Buda", there appears to be a solid argument to support the idea that this was not a process of illegitimate birth, but rather a legitimate and planned conception for a specific purpose. The birth of the Modern Keris seems to be rooted firmly in the law of the Javanese-Hindu hierarchical system. Then there is the system of regulation that defines what can, and cannot be considered a proper form for a keris. I do appreciate Ariel, that you are not deeply involved with the keris, but contrary to what you believe, the keris is rooted in law and regulation. One of the natures of the keris is as a societal regulator, a nature that can hardly have force in the absence of law. When we consider the multitude of other ways in which the word "legitimate" can be applied we have a word that can provide a descriptor for almost any concept of legitimacy that we wish to apply to the keris. The point I wish to make is this:- although "legitimate" may have its roots in "lex", in current usage it can be applied in a very much broader sense. This was the usage I was aiming for, as I did not wish to constrain discussion to that tired old parade of opinions on why each of us think some particular elements of something or other make it a fitting addition to our personal collections. I wanted to move away from the collector-centric thought process. A quick search of an authoritative dictionary will reveal that "legitimate" can be taken as :- lawful, conforming to rule or law, proper, normal, regular, of a standard type, logically admissible, justifiable. My preferred source is the Oxford on Historical Principles, but I believe any major dictionary will provide a similar list of applications. So you see, my choice of words was not perhaps as haphazard as it may have appeared at first glance, and in fact it demands a proper consideration of the actual applications of the word "legitimate". I am relatively certain that nobody grabbed their favourite dictionary before writing a response to my question, but even so, it seems that virtually everybody has responded in a sense that legitimises the use of the word "legitimate". In your response you have touched on the fact that time alters perception, and that any individual or group of people can determine for themselves what it is that establishes the parameters of legitimacy. Your summing up is precisely in line with the opinions of other respondents, and also with my opinions. However, although "--- we cannot impose our criteria on Jawanese natives, but they in turn cannot impose their definitions ( and there are more than one cares to consider:-)) on the non-Jawanese collectors---" In respect of the keris, and most particularly in respect of the Javanese keris, it is essential for us to recognise that we are dealing with much more than a simple weapon, or even a totemic symbol. We are dealing with what is arguably the major icon of a culture, and that icon is no less so today than it has been at any time in its past. Its nature may have altered, but its iconic status is living and remains intact. Collectors of anything invent their own rules of legitimacy, rules which very often have no relevance at all to the legitimacy of the cultural owners of that which they collect. Dr. David has brought this out very clearly and concisely in what he has contributed to this thread. So we have a situation where the ideas of collectors, especially collectors who are outside Javanese society, are not at all relevant to the values of the Javanese people who are most closely associated with the cultural values of Jawa. However, the collector must be at least somewhat aware of the values of those Javanese people, for if he fails to gain such an awareness he has negated any claim to knowledge of that which he collects. Put simply:- the values of collectors of keris are of less than no importance to the Javanese, but the Javanese are of immense importance to collectors of keris.